Royal Naval College (ORNC) Greenwich

[tim lewin]

Im inspired to post this by Chalky's reference to the excellent book by Alex Cherry "Yankee RN" which covers closely his training in the RNC at Greenwich in the early '40s and is hugely well worth reading (although the narrative rather tails off post-war). This book was the basis of my meeting with Chalky and our co-operation in creating the memorial to the US volunteers, the Malta Memorial and now we are working on a new project, Requiem for the Falklands".
David, you expressed trepidation about returning to Greenwich; don't worry. I urge you to put misgivings out of your mind and to return. The fabric of the place is in the best condition since it was built and once again it is a place of learning.
The majority of the buildings are occupied by the University of Greenwich but King Charles Court is occuppied by Trinity College of Music, possibly the best music university in GB. The Painted Hall and Chapel remain public of course and have a good stream of visitors. The former wardroom below the PH is now the King William restaurant run by Lieth's to a good standard altrhough the decor is a bit bland given the history of the place. Across the passage under the chapel the undercroft has just been completely refurbished. I am slightly sorry to report that the mens' loo next to the wardrom which remained "as was" for years has now been completely modernised losing some nostalgia but to greater plumbing efficiency no doubt!
The old tennis courts have been grassed over but the fountains restored so this now looks much better. It is a pleasure to walk round with the sounds of the young musicians in the background and the place full of scurrying students, at least its alive.
The Dreadnought Seamens Hospital which was in such a poor condition it almost had to be demolished has been restored as the University Library.
Greenwich of course has a special place in my heart as it represents not just the wider scope of sea-power as the "soul" of the RN with its inseperable association with Nelson and our maritime history. It is also the place my father took for his title when he was given a peerage after the Falklands conflict. My parents lived in King Charles Court for several years (West wing) and were there in residence during the conflict. I used to visit for breakfast whenever I drove to my office in the City, this was home. My younger brother, who died several years ago of a cerebal tumour just before his fortieth birthday, has his memorial bench in the grounds. There was a plan, sure one day it will happen, to reconstruct Greenwich Pier into a spiffing new entrance to maritime Greenwich, and thus the gate next to pier was named "The Lewin Gate" and dedicated by the Duke of Edinburgh, although as the plan has so far not been realised its a bit of a gate from nowhere just now!
Back to the Falklands, the Trinity Colege of Music faculty have extremely kindly agreed to arrange for their composition school to compose a "Falklands Requiem" which will have its premiere in the Chapel on December the second this year. This is being organised by Chalky and me with huge help from the College, Foundation and too many other kind and dedicated souls to name. I will write about this in the very near future in a seperate thread but i just want you all to know that even though Greenwich has lost the Navy it has not lost its sense of history.
My parents left in 1982 when my father retired from the RN, he went on to become chairman of the trustees of the Maritime Museum, so effectively moved across the street. In 1991/2 the cold war ended and the peace dividend dictated that we no longer needed seperate facilities to train officers from the different forces (never a sound idea in the first place) Greenwich became redundant and the MoD allowed the fabric to decline alarmingly. It became a sad and neglected place until, with some heavy-duty influence from my father and his gang, it was finally decided to retain its links with education. It is now managed as a historical site by the Greenwich Foundation which numbers among its trustees the last Admiral to actually work there, and the recently retired director of the IWM so its future direction is in good hands, but, its an expensive place to care for so needs all the visitors it can get.
I have posted lots of pictures in the past but will be there next monday so if its not too bleak a day will post you all a whole lot more.
tim

[herakles]

A most interesting post Tim.

The importance of Greenwich doesn't need emphasising. But it's great to read some new facts about it.

[David Shipton]

Tim, thank you for this. Its very reassuring to know that the College is being maintained to a good standard. My wife will be pleased to as she did ber WRNS officer's training there in the mid 70's. I look forward to hearing about the dedication in December.

Cheers
David

[ChalkyWhite]

Here is a shot which will interest all those who have an interest in these wonderful buildings.
Taken in 1941 it shows two of the College Instructor's.
On the left Lieutenant Commander Ayres RN and Lieutenant Commander McLean RNVR.

Just look at the building beyond these two officers which had been bombed. All windows blocked up and a huge pile of rubble.

I have several other photos of this era which I shall post including one of the Captain of the College, another of a senior Instructor officer who was killed in the Blitz at the College.

Chalky White

[astraltrader]

Tim - thanks very much for your enlightening post.

It is good to read that Greenwich has not totally gone for ever but is now being used and enjoyed in an appropriate manner.

Best of luck to you and Chalky with the Falklands requiem.

[kc]

Here is an image of the college from c.1900. I'm sure there must be many similar photos to this one though.

http://www.battleships-cruisers.co.uk/images/greenwichcollege.jpg

[tim lewin]

Fascinating; incredible to see how black the buildings are in Chalky's post, we forget just how dirty London was after years of sooty coal fires. The RNC is of course next to a power station as well but must have had literally hundreds of coal fires of its own. The group shot is taken on the steps between the Chapel (to the left) and the Painted Hall (right). To welcome guests to the Falklands Requiem Chalky has organised a Ghurka piper, if its foul weather he will play under the colonade to the left.
Here is a general shot of the inside of the Painted Hall taken from the top of the steps.
I also forgot to say that the Grand Staircase in the entrance to King Charles Court has recently been restores and decorated with beautifully restored paintings by (forgotten his name! the same chap who painted the PH) which have been in storage at the British Museum for over 100 years. The restoration was dedicated, opened, in a special ceremony by the Duke of Kent.
Greenwich is getting better and better and the best part is that it is alive again. It was very sad and shabby in the "between time" after the RN moved out and its fate remained undecided. There was a time when a Japanese company was bidding for the site to turn it ino a hotel and entertainment complex so life could be worse!
tim

PS. The Trafalgar seems to have undergone a major interior facelift as well, they do a good pint.

[vivian]

From Tim's post......

quote
Greenwich is getting better and better and the best part is that it is alive again. It was very sad and shabby in the "between time" after the RN moved out and its fate remained undecided. There was a time when a Japanese company was bidding for the site to turn it ino a hotel and entertainment complex so life could be worse!
tim


I'm embarrassed to say that I had no idea that Greenwich no longer belonged to the RN. Thank goodness there has been a happy ending to this particular story. This has been a very interesting thread...it makes me want to go and visit. What a marvellous place.

Thanks Tim and Chalky, for letting us know about your projects. Best of luck.

regards,
Vivian

[tim lewin]

the Greenwich Foundation has its own web site about the place which is www.oldroyalnavalcollege.org which has some pictures and details plus a whats-on. Worth remembering too that the ORNC is part of the complex that includes the National Maritime Museum, NMM, and the Royal Observatory which has recently also had a major refurb. This a a couple of days worth of visit. And dont forget the Cutty Sark altho access is closed during the reconstruction.
tim

[ChalkyWhite]

Here are another couple of shots which are of interest for this thread.

The first is of Captain Davis and his wife with their doggies. Consider the view of the building in my first photo posted the other day showing the bricked up windows and the rubble after that part of the College had been bombed.

It would appear, according to this view, that all buildings had not had their windows bricked up and the first building must have been substantially damaged. This building is now the Trinity College of Music I think. Tim will confirm or deny that. I guess also that a lot of viewers will be totally unaware that beneath the lawns shown here are the remains of King Henry V111's Palace. Excavated over the years for those intending to visit the College there is an excellent display concerning these excavations on display.

The second photo is of The Marchioness Cholmondeley ( Born a Sassoon), who was Chief Officer of the Wrens, together with Captain Davis,Commanding officer of the Royal Naval College, and Commander D'Oyly one of the senior Instructor officers c.1941.
During research into the Americans in the RNVR Commander D'Oyly's name cropped up several times. He was it appears a very popular officer with all the students. They are standing beneath the great painting at the far end of the Painted Hall.

I hope these views are of interest.

Chalky White

[tim lewin]

Some 40 years later here are my parents with their dog, Cracker, outside the front door of their flat in the NW corner of King Charles Court, you are right Chalky, the back drop is indeed KCC. Sadly I cannot remember any names except Colour Sgt. Crouch.
tim

[ChalkyWhite]

Here is another photo of three officers at the Royal naval College thread for interest.
Left: Lieutenant Lesley Fenton RNVR.
Centre: The popular Commander D'Oyly RN.
Right: Commander Alexander Reginald Chalmer RN Rtd. He had cpme out of retirement to join the teaching staff at the College. Sadly he was killed when the College was bombed on 20th January 1943. He is honoured at the Camberwell Crematorium screen wall panel 3.

Seen here are the tennis courts, now long gone, with the River Thames over beyond the trees. If memory serves me correct Time Team were digging up this area a few years ago looking for King Henry V111's Jouisting Ring, etc which I think they found.

Chalky White

[tim lewin]

Dear All,
I promised you a series of views of the ORNC so you can see that its condition these days is excellent and the atmosphere vibrant. Unfortunately the weather did not help, being overcast and gloomy in the extreme but I think it will give you a positive impression. During the Conflict my father used to fly from Grand Square to Northwood most mornings by helicopter. This allowed him to be nearby for Downing Street and still only 20 mins from the office. The Admiral President's house has recently been restored inside and is available for hospitality from the Foundation. Next time I will do more interior shots of the original parts of the buildings.
tim

[David Shipton]

Thanks Tim, nice to see that the College is obviously in good hands. Look forward to some interior shots
David

[mik43]

Brilliant pics Tim. Nice to see that they are looking after the buildings which is more than can be said for others remaining in the MOD estate. Look forward to seeing the interior shots to see what if any changes have been made. The 'tunnel' between the two blocks came in very useful when it was wet and you needed to get from your cabin to the Painted Hall and back!!
Mik

[tim lewin]

my meeting went on longer than expected so after a swift pint in the Trafalgar I took these on the walk back from there to the new Docklands Railway station next to the Cutty Sark (Cutty Sark Station!) by which time the sun had been lost to the clouds. I should be back in a couple of weeks.
tim

[Harley]

Tim, an acquaintance of mine visited the RNC back in the 1960s and recalls a large diorama of the Battle of Trafalgar being there. Do you know if it's still there?

Nice pics by the way. A couple of years back I went to a conference at the NMM and spend many pretty though freezing mornings killing time among the buildings.

Cheers,
Simon

[tim lewin]

Not aware of a diorama at Greenwich, there is one in the House of Lords though, absolutely huge. It is in the big hall, forget the name opposite the chamber and has on the opposite wall another diorama of Waterloo. I will ask about it when I go again, prob in a couple of weeks. The NMM is greatly improved these days as well and now they have the spectacular gift from Sammy Ofer to build a new wing it will be even more splendid. Hope it might improve access to collections as well.
tim

[mik43]

Hi Tim

Hope you don't mind, but I've downloaded the couple of interior pics you've posted, purely for personal use, definitely NOT commercial.

Regards
Mik

[tim lewin]

fell free, they are for everyone to enjoy!

[Linton]

You might be interested in this document.It is the college notebook from 1966.
http://www.naval-review.org/asp/temps/U0481/rncnotes.pdf

[oldsalt]

In Nov 1963, I was promoted to the SD list, after getting kitted up in Guzz I arrived at Greenwich in the evening. All of us being promoted were met by a Lt.Cdr. who instructed us to dress in our new uniforms on the following morning, breakfast then church. No impressive ceremony, but breakfast in the painted hall , incredible. The story of the painted hall (apart from the 365 bare breasts) is the painter Thornhill, he painted a portrait of himself on the end wall , with outstretched open palm. Some say he is indicating his great work, others that he is saying "where's my money" he wasn't paid until 15 yrs after completion.:o:o:o:mad::confused:

[tim lewin]

He was paid by the square yard of paint laid on! in the restored staircase in King Charles entrance they have hung Thornhill's reddering of works originally by Botticelli which have been restored after more than 100 years in storage, unseen, they are BIG and absolutely look splendid. Here are a few pics of the Painted Hall, this could also do with some restoration but it remains an exceptional allegorical work.
tim

The East entrance is the main entrance, the steps lead down to the colonades abd the walk way the the Chapel opposite. The memorial to the US volunteers is engraved in the floor to the right of the steps. The memorial to the "Immortal Memory" is engraved in the floor of the West end where Nelson's body lay in state after Trafalgar (see previous posts)

[tim lewin]

i should tell you, those who have never been, that the rather utilitarian looking steel trolley is a mirror-table for easier viewing of the spectacular ceiling. The paintings are allegorical but for the life of me i can't remember of what! I am sure someone will tell us. Below the Painted Hall is the old wardroom that is now a restaurant open to the public, sometimes i go there, food is good, of if in a hurry, to the Tafalgar pub outside the East Gate.
tim

[tim lewin]

another useless talking point, when the PH was built the architect (Vanbrugh? Wren?) designed it without pillars to the East entrance above which is the dome. The powers that be told him that it would never do and he better put in the pillars lest all collapse about the King's ears. He built the pillars but terminated them 2-3 inches below the beam they are supposed to support thus satisfying the customer (who never found out) and proving his point to himself and history.. The dome has never shown any movement!

[oldsalt]

I believe Admiral Byng was imprisoned in the college before his excecution, the window of the room, used to have the remains of the bars still visible. Can these metal fittings still be seen?

[tim lewin]

I will ask the Foundation curators when i go back week after next, if true, i will ask if they can take me there and take a pic for you
tim

[tim lewin]

a shot of the memorial to the US Volunteers taken last week..
tim

[FTM127]

We Americans are a bit in awe of such historic buildings. The represent the pride of the Royal Navy and clearly instill that feeling today. Without such monuments, we are all the poorer yet with them, we can be pennyless and still feel rich indeed.

Fred Morsheimer

[ChalkyWhite]

As one of the organising Committee, with Tim Lewin, responsible for the placing of the US RNVR Memorial tablets containing the names of the volunteers in 2001, in another earlier thread I outlined how the tablets were placed, joining the original tablet which had been placed after the war, and the presenting to the Greenwich Foundation in 2004 the Colours shown in Tim's photo, and in a series of photographs I posted on the Forum.
As I explained, a year after the Colours were presented, because of verbal abuse of the Guides in the Painted Hall, the Colours had to be removed which I, and many others, thought absolutely disgraceful.
However now, with the Iraq war seeming to be less of a problem matters have eased and the Colours have recently been restored.
I was so pleased when Tim told me the good news and to see his photo, taken last week, is really encouraging.
I recall visiting the Painted Hall in 2007 with the daughter in law of Lieutenant John Stanley Parker RNVR, one of the original three Volunteers, who was most upset at the removal of the Colours.
Lets hope, now that sense has prevailed, that the Colours together with the memory of those 22 Volunteers to Britains Royal Navy can be respected into the future.

Chalky White

[astraltrader]

Good news indeed, Chalky.

[ChalkyWhite]

Thanks Terry it was indeed excellent news.

I should add for all those opening this thread and wondering about what I was talking about re the US RNVR tablets and the presentation of Colours and the removal of same. All that information, and photos, is over on the US Navy & Ships, under the Destroyers for Bases Agreement thread. ]
I guess it's a pity these two threads were not combined somehow as they seem to be batting against each other with similar information.

Chalky White

[Seagull]

I believe Admiral Byng was imprisoned in the college before his excecution, the window of the room, used to have the remains of the bars still visible. Can these metal fittings still be seen?

Hello Old Salt and Tim

Tim thanks for your photographs.
Did you ever manage to get a photograph of the bars where Admiral Byng was imprisoned? I met a Naval Officer recently who saw Byng's Ghost. There are several other stories. Anyone know more?

Seagull

[barnsey]

Tim,

Fascinating stuff indeed .... The Painted Hall ..... aaaaah ... such memories for myself and 20 other cadets from HMS Worcester ..... our first term visit Michaelmas 1955 ..... October 5th to be precise.

We bused up from Greenhithe after a skimpy breakfast and spent (what seemed like hours ) wandering around the Museum, a lad of just over thirteen and a half bored out of his mind ... the Royal Navy was not for me and at that time, neither was its history.

Eventually we were rounded up and led through to see the Painted Hall, must have been about 1300 and our stomachs were certainly well aware they had not had food or drink for a long long period but, the aroma as we entered through the doors !!!!!!! ......OH BOY !!!!! ... food !!!!! and its TOMATO SOUP for starters.

Correction though, the tables were clear and the Tomato Soup had been half an hour previous, for those who occupied Greenwich .... NOT the visitors.

I tell you that was the worst torcher I have ever undergone, and so the PAINTED HALL, that scene and smell is with me as I write this.

SO PLEASE TIM BELT UP ABOUT THE PAINTED HALL, beautifull as it is ... its memory is sheer bloody torcher to this now aged laddie in Westport NZ .... !!!

I'll have to open a can of soup to calm me down. :eek: :( ;)

[tim lewin]

funny how smells can rekindle historic memories; ships always have a very distinctive smell (or did) and older racing cars running on Castrol R; horses, dogs, some classic perfumes, even the sea....

maybe we could can these along with the aroma of Greenwich Tomato soup!

None of my family ever reported an encounter with poor Byng during their several years there, now they have gone to join him.

[Seagull]

Tim. Keep posting your photographs - they are all very much appreciated (for those who did not have the lingering smell of the tomato soup). Any photographs of the rooms where Byng was imprisoned?
Seagull

[tim lewin]

I am not sure where it is now; home for my parents was in King Charles Court, which is now the home of Trinity College of Music (sponsored by one of my splendid Russian clients) but nearly all of the rest is occupied by the University of Greenwich, their library (the old dreadnought seamens gospital) or the visitor centre. The place is run by the Greenwich Foundation so next time I go I will ask about it. I always carry my little camera so if its not now a students bedroom i will take a few pics, and look for the remains of the bars to the window.

They did recently refurbish the Admiral President's house so that looks quite good now, it can be hired for events. Food at Greenwich is by Lieth's which is good but very far from being a bargain (I have not tried their tom soup tho)
tim

[Seagull]

Barnsey - Was it Cambells tom soup? !
Seagull

[barnsey]

Not being a gormet on tomato soup makes unfortunately I cannot say if it was Campbell's but, as I have little doubt economy was a prerequisite and Campbells being an upper class brand ... I very much doubt it ... apart from which all we wanted was food and that Painted Hall smelt like heaven .... but a lad never marched on smells it was what was under his belt that mattered. I think when we got back to the ship it was steamed Herrings with bread and butter !!

Disastrous day, memorable in many ways but definitely not a gastronomic delight.

Now the Second Term visit was always a huge success ..... a visit to a P&O liner, ours was the "Iberia" ..... First Class saloon for a four course lunch, !!!!

[Seagull]

Hello again Barnsey

Been wondering if you had any memories of the hall other than smells of tom soup (Heinz?)! Did any part of the building (architecture, paintings, space, pillars, people .... ) remain in your memory?
Seagull

[barnsey]

Hello again Barnsey

Been wondering if you had any memories of the hall other than smells of tom soup (Heinz?)! Did any part of the building (architecture, paintings, space, pillars, people .... ) remain in your memory?
Seagull

Hi Seagull,

Of course the high ceiling and vastness of the Painted Hall itself has stayed in my memory, the rows of tables with their lamps on them but thats all. I have collected various photos from the web and added to my 'Worcester' folder as an aid to the memory.

Really though the whole visit was not of great impression to a lad not yet 14, the smell of the Tomato soup was and still is the one part of the visit which abides.

I know it sounds silly but there it is the smell of Tomato soup, Campbells or Heinz remains my memory of such a magnificent building. Strange to say at the age of four I was taken to Whipsnade zoo and guess what we had for lunch .... yup Tomato Soup which I hated, would not eat and I fear disgraced myself with the people who had taken me.

[tim lewin]

Dear Dave, here is a view of Greenwich from the park looking across to the temples of mammon on the isle of dogs, this was just before the banking colapse so maybe those clouds were trying to tell us something!

[Seagull]

Tim, amazing contrast between the old and the new!
Barnsey, did you notice this?
Seagull

[harry.gibbon]

On a jocular note... must have relocated the meridian line to between the two buildings:) those two clocks don't know which time zone they are in:)

Little h

[Seagull]

There's acute obserbation for you!
Could the 'clock' on the left be a barometer?
Seagull

[harry.gibbon]

There's acute obserbation for you!
Could the 'clock' on the left be a barometer?
Seagull


... if so there then it surely was about to record a deep depression over the 'pointy' building:(

Little h

[tjstoneman]

Harry/Seagull,

The dial on the western tower is linked to the weathervane on top of the dome, and shows the wind direction.

Tim

[INVINCIBLE]

He was paid by the square yard of paint laid on! in the restored staircase in King Charles entrance they have hung Thornhill's reddering of works originally by Botticelli which have been restored after more than 100 years in storage, unseen, they are BIG and absolutely look splendid. Here are a few pics of the Painted Hall, this could also do with some restoration but it remains an exceptional allegorical work.
tim

The East entrance is the main entrance, the steps lead down to the colonades abd the walk way the the Chapel opposite. The memorial to the US volunteers is engraved in the floor to the right of the steps. The memorial to the "Immortal Memory" is engraved in the floor of the West end where Nelson's body lay in state after Trafalgar (see previous posts)

The splendid Chapel is also well worth a visit. I attended a wedding there and was amused later to see that the Chapel starred in the film "Four Weddings and a Funeral" - I think it is the second wedding in the film.

[tim lewin]

I had just come there from a meeting in HMS Belfast but the weather follwed me from the West, here is Belfast looking frrd as I left! I dropped some bits off at the NMM which has its offices in the East end of the colonade and was walking across the King Charles Court, the pic is taken from the colonade, you can see the pillars that i artistically used to frame the shot! minutes later it was like a monsoon.

[Seagull]

Tim: A great shot (post 49). After the eye followed the three lots of parallel lines (guns, poles and pillars [had to search for latter) forming an excellent composition, it saw Darth Vader at the top of the ship flexing his muscles!

Harry.Gibbon: Don’t know why – but your post made me burst out laughing in the middle of dinner (a day later) – as I imagined that black sky (which Tim captured so well) in Greenwich bursting under the weight of the worlds anxt – and the barometer recording it! Then, later, thanks to Tjstoneman we learn that it is a weather vane.

Invincible: I’ve now planned a visit to the Chapel. Thanks.

Barnsey: Any more memories from your visit to Greenwich (apart from smells of soup!)?
Seagull

[oldsalt]

I remember arriving at Greenwich on 11th Nov 63, with all my new uniforms in my new metal trunk. I expected some sort of ceremony not just "get into uniform in the morning for Church & breakfast. A bit of a let down or a calculated understatement. :confused::confused:

[harry.gibbon]

The Antiques Roadshow has just started on TV BBC1 - introduction includes Fiona Bruce bowling in what appeared to be a two lane skittle alley!!!

The great Painted Hall with its magnificant painted ceiling being the actual venue for the show!!

Settling down to watch it now.

Little h

[Seagull]

Oldsalt: Any ceremonies in Greenwich that impressed you?

HG: Sorry I missed Fiona in the Hall! Anything interesting that struck you?
Seagull

[harry.gibbon]

Seagull; Told a lie, only a white one though ... instead of watching the prog I have taped it ... I scurried off to my laptop to look at the various pic galleries and web sites of the old place.

I will post my observations on the prog eventually.

Little h

[oldsalt]

The Wardroom bar walls were covered in portraits of Victorian Admirals, all whiskers & serious expressions. It was really daunting ,until the third pink gin. ;);):cool:

[tim lewin]

Dear All,
A couple of items on Greenwich; when i took the picture of Canary Wharf on that stormy day i also took the opposite view (reciprocal?) up the hill to the Observatory so here it is.
Changing the subject a little some notes about Trinity College of Music, this is one of the best music academies in the UK, maybe the World, and now has its home in King Charles Court, see pic. By good fortune one of my Russian clients supports some scholrs from moscow studying ther with excellent results. For the 25th. anniversary of the Falklands Conflict Trinity students composed a Requiem which had its premiere in the Chapel. A result devolving from this was that the RAF commissioned Trinity to compose for them a special piece of music for the 70th Anniversary of the Battle of Britain which they have now done and is in rehearsal for a premiers in St. Clement Danes church, the RAF church, in the Strand on May 26th.

If anyone is interested i will post the programme etc for the Falklands Requiem later.
tim

[Seagull]

HG or Little H: Look forward to your impressions!

Tim: Your photographs are very much appreciated. The first one with the people in it gives the perfect perspective.
Remember that you said that you would find out and photograph where Byng was imprisioned. Or have I missed it?
Seagull

[Seagull]

PS Please post the programme. Yes very interested!

[tim lewin]

Byng not forgotten; i need to go there to do it. I will def go in May as have meetings planned with TCM. I am delighted you like the pics, digital pocket cameras are so good and convenient they are a real pleasure for this convenience sort of snap!

I will tidy up the Falklands Requiem and some pics of the night and post them in a day or two, i do this at my desk while i am "working" so with monday as a holiday it will prob be next week.
Thanks for your appreciation.
all best
tim

[Powers]

Like many others, my wife has become very involved in researching her family history which has led to the discovery of many interesting facts. Most have followed close scrutiny of computer records or sight of official documentation. One recent snippet from a 1933 'Will' has intrigued both of us, so I thought I'd provide a few facts on the forum in case anyone has any information or advice.

Briefly, the Will specifies that a family heirloom (a model 'sailing ship') should be preserved either by surviving family members at the deceased's family home, or at 'The Museum attached to the Royal Naval College, Greenwich'. Interestingly, the written instructions regarding the model sailing ship takes precedence over all of the other bequests in the Will, and takes up almost half of the two page document. It was obviously very important to the deceased.

Avoiding the official legal jargon on the Will, it carefully stipulates that the model, which was made by French Prisoners during the Napoleonic war and presented to Captain, The Honourable Sir George Grey, Baronet, RN, should remain with kinsmen or kinswomen, or descendants, at the family home in Northumberland as long as it remained the family residence. On ceasing to be the family home, the owner of the model should present it forthwith to the 'Museum of the Royal Naval College, Greenwich'. It should not be disposed of in any other way.

As I write, I have absolutely no idea what the model sailing ship was or where it currently resides. I do know, however, that the family concerned no longer live at the family estate in Northumberland, so it could possibly be somewhere at Greenwich. Any information would obviously be very much appreciated. Captain Grey, by the way, once commanded HMS VICTORY.

Regards.....Paul

[tim lewin]

Almost certainly this refers to the National Maritime Museum across the Romney Road from the RNC; indeed it was built as part of the whole palace. By chance I am in contact with the curator, one on them, at the NMM so will pass on your details regarding the Napoleonic model and ask if they have it, where it is and what history passed across with it. This might take a while, musuems have a different approach to time! Alternatively if you might want to do it yourself please send me a private message and I wil give you the details.
tim

[karen]

Hi Tim

Do you remember these photo's..They are from the Service of Rememberence and Thanksgiving for The Americans in the RNVR...22nd June 2004..at Greenwich..

regards
Karen

[Powers]

Reference Tim Lewin's post 61 above.

Tim, thank you very much for offering to try and obtain more details on the whereabouts of the Napoleonic model from the NMM. My wife and I would be very pleased to receive any information you may find. Time is of no consequence!

If it helps, the 'Will' referring to it was that of the late Right Honourable Edward, Viscount Grey of Falloden, and the model was originally presented to his Great Grandfather, Capt Sir George Grey, who captained HMS Victory from 4 December 1795 to 30 March 1797.

It would be very gratifying to know that it's being properly looked after at the NMM. Thanks again for your offer.


Regards......Paul

[tim lewin]

Dear Karen, I remember it as tho it were yesterday; i have lots of pics of the event, the first i did with Chalky, which you are welcome to have copies of but i expect you probably have the same ones. It was a great event and impeccably organised by John Snoddon (ex-GI) as to the choreography and protocols. Just to remind our friends in the Forum, the service was conducted by the Arch-bishop of Canterbury, the American visitors represented every family including Mrs Bush, there were details from the RN and the USN as honour guards. Winston Churchill was the MC. We had a RM band, it was a superb occaision. And....doesn't your dad look proud!!
tim

Paul; I will meet them on the 4th June but will be in touch before then so will pass on the details you provided and hope for the best.

[karen]

Thankyou Tim..Perhaps when I am back in the UK we could compare with each other what Photo's we have or not....I only have a few here in Portugal as the rest are at Dad's...
I also have a few here of the Malta Seige Memorial....well I think they are of this event..as in each and all the photo's I have dad seems to look the same in everyone of them....Bless him....

[Powers]

Re: my posts 60 and 63, and Tim Lewin's post 61 above.

With regard to my search for a model 'sailing ship' made by French prisoners of war for presentation to Captain Sir George Grey RN, and Tim's subsequent offer of help to trace it through the NMM, I can now report that I found a photograph of it at http://www.nmm.ac.uk/collections/explore/object.cfm?ID=SLR0640 which shows it to be HMS VICTORY.

Consequently, I've been in touch with a very helpful curator at the Greenwich museum who was very interested to learn of the document bequeathing the model to the NMM, a copy of which my wife and I intend to give him later this year when we hopefully meet up. I'm so pleased to be able to say that the model itself remains in very good condition and is now on display at the 'New Store' at Chatham's Historic Dockyard.

Regards.....Paul

[tim lewin]

Excellent news, well done;
You will remember my earlier post on the Falklands Requiem composed by the students at Trinity college of Music and premiered in the Chapel a couple of years ago. The follow-up from this was that the RAF contingent was so touched by the performance that they arranged with the composition department of Trinity to compose another memorial piece fro the 70th anniversary of the Battle of Britain last year which had its debut in the RAF church at St. Clement Danes.
Life goes on......
all very best
tim

[seaJane]

Only just caught up with this thread - I fixed for other half (RNR) to have his 50th birthday party in the restaurant under the Painted Hall (23 December 2006), catered by Leith's who were most obliging and did excellent food.

I was so busy making sure everything was going smoothly that I never went upstairs to the Painted Hall! (must go there one day.... )

Harry Christophers and The Sixteen will be performing one of their Choral Pilgrimage concerts in the Old Royal Naval College Chapel, 15 April 2011:
http://www.the-sixteen.org.uk/page/144/Hail+Mother+of+the+Redeemer/109