The Wearing of Medals

[nigelweysom]

i understand that it is possible to wear your fathers medals at a remembrance
service ? can anyone confirm this as i would like to wear my fathers medals this year
Nigel

[alanbenn]

Nigel, it is correct that you can wear your fathers medals for the remembrance parade, They should be worn on your right-side to distinguish that they are not your medals as issued. It is becoming quite a common sight these days with so many of the War veterans no longer being with us.

The Royal British Legion can advise you further on any etiquette.

Regards
Alan

[herakles]

That's quite right. In Australia it's the same thing. One sees grandsons and great grandsons doing this - with pride.

[tonclass]

Isn't it the same for the issue of foreign medals ? Have to be worn on the right breast to distinguish from those won from the British Government.

[alanbenn]

Rik, you are right in what you say, that is what was originally the correct manner of dress code, but it is now more and more common place to see foriegn issue medals worn alongside UK medals, many medals being recent issues after campaining by organisations to get service recognised.

Don't know if serving personnel are allowed but it is more accepted now during parades such as Remembrance Sunday etc.

Regards
Alan

[tonclass]

The latest foreign medal being issued is the 'Pingat Jasa' medal to commemorate the 'Confrontation' war. It's being issued by the Malasian Government to all those who took part. It took our Government quite a while to recognise the honour bestowed on our servicemen by Malasia, but they relented eventually and now they are slowly being presented to servicemen 40 years after the event. I wonder which side of the blazer they are worn ?

[herakles]

There was a big fuss in Australia recently concerning foreign medals. For years, Australians who served in Vietnam were denied the right to wear the significant medal presented to them by the Vietnam Govt.

Recently the Oz Govt. relented but demanded they pay for the medal themselves.

This caused a furore and the Govt. backed down, paying for them. Cost? £2-50.

The war in Vietnam was the first time Australian and British troops didn't fight alongside each other. Our PM pleaded with Wilson to no avail. "At least send a band then", he said.

[romft1945]

Very interesting but can anyone tell me why my father was allowed to where his Polish medal (far right) with his British issue medals, no one as yet can answer this one,
Rom

[alanbenn]

Romft, the medal issued to your Dad was for service aboard Polish ships I assume and issued during the war and is recognised as an official medal.
We had plenty of Polish sailors, airmen, paratroopers etc during the war who served with british units and they received medals from our government.

The initial question was wearing someone else's medals and also referred to commemorative medals.

What did your Dad receive the medal for? There can't be too many of them around if no one had heard of them, you must be very proud of them.

Regards
Alan

[romft1945]

I know the original question was someone elses medals, but then up cropped foreign medals,I was not sure if they were allowed to be worn,although my Father did but you seem to have answered the question,Iam not fully sure why he got it, although rumour has it in the family it was for bravery,like a lot of the war vets they never talked about them,my mum bless her is to old and can not remember, if ever I find out will post thread for you,
ROM

[alanbenn]

That would be great Romft, I'm sure it would be a very interesting story.

Regards
Alan

[stewart mcloughlin]

My understanding has always been that:-
UK medals/awards left hand side,
other medals/awards right hand side, if not 'approved' by UK government,
if 'approved', can be worn with UK medals/awards in an order of precedence nominated for that medal/award,
that is not to say that in some instances, some recipients have worn the medal whether-or-not as their fancy has taken them, irrespective of whether the Government has approved it or not. "I've been awarded it, I earned it, I'll b...dy well wear it where I like."
and there are those who are not aware of the 'etiquette' involved through no fault of their own, and have confused others by wearing them 'incorrectly'.
The M.o.D. Medal Office at:-
http://www.mod.uk/DefenceInternet/DefenceFor/Veterans/Medals/
should be consulted for the definitive answer.
Stewart

[tonclass]

The latest confusion regarding medals that are the most common (in the UK) concern the JUBILEE MEDAL and the LSGC MEDAL. The LSGC MEDAL is deemed to be more important than the JUBILEE medal, and should therefore be nearest the heart !! I have seen numerous photo's of members of the Armed Forces with their medals the wrong way round.... Who keeps a check on this protocol ????????

[herakles]

"Who keeps a check on this protocol ????????"

Why would anyone bother? Surely this isn't something to get them twisted in a knot.

Now people wearing medals for which they are NOT entitled to ... ... that's an altogether different matter and I gather not uncommon.

[Joseph]

The wearing of Foriegn medals when you have left the service is not a problem, the only law refering to them is Queens Regulations and consequently it does not apply, the only protocol is they rank behind UK medals. Wearing medals that you are not entitled to is against the Law in the UK and the Police will deal.

Regards Charles

[stewart mcloughlin]

Herk,
I think someone should bother. Either there is a protocol, an order of seniority of a medal/award, or there isn't.
Say to wear a V.C. behind another medal shows disrespect to the seniority of the V.C. et al.
Everywhere we are governed by seniority. Forming up a parade has its rules. Civil government first, military behind, senior service first, other organisations by seniority afterwards, Scouts before Guides etc.
I can just imagine the Admiral of the Fleet's reaction if the RAF decided to take up prime position. He'd have him keel-hauled!
Stewart

[Joseph]

Stewart,

There is a protocol and an order for the wearing of medals, but if you have left the service there is no comeback if you wear them as you like. If you wear decorations or awards on your left breast that you have not been awarded then that is against the law. Im with you, if the book says thats the way you should do it then I will. Each to his own.

Regards Charles

[romft1945]

Crikey wish I had never asked ROM:confused:

[nigelweysom]

thanks for that guys
the info has been really helpful
Nigel

[herakles]

Crikey wish I had never asked ROM:confused:

I'm glad you did mate! :)

[stewart mcloughlin]

So am I.
If someone has learned something new today or cleared up any doubt, then your question has served its purpose.
Stewart

[romft1945]

Thanks all will let you know what the Polish say when I find out when ever that will be ROM

[ChalkyWhite]

Hello Alan,

This is slightly off the track of the current forum on medals but is similar.I wonder if you can answer this question.

One thing which has often puzzled me is the sight of Churchill, whilst attending I think it was the Yalta Conference, but might have been Casablanca. He is sitting with Roosevelt and Stalin wearing the uniform of the Royal Air Force with pilots wings on the left breast. I've seen this TV documentary many times and it always puzzles me.
When did Churchill ever qualify as an RAF pilot or was he given an honorary set of wings, and for what reason?

Chalky White

Chalky White

[Melv.]

Hello Alan,

This is slightly off the track of the current forum on medals but is similar.I wonder if you can answer this question.

One thing which has often puzzled me is the sight of Churchill, whilst attending I think it was the Yalta Conference, but might have been Casablanca. He is sitting with Roosevelt and Stalin wearing the uniform of the Royal Air Force with pilots wings on the left breast. I've seen this TV documentary many times and it always puzzles me.
When did Churchill ever qualify as an RAF pilot or was he given an honorary set of wings, and for what reason?

Chalky White

Chalky White

Funny you mention that Chalky because a few years ago I wondered why Churchill was wearing Pilot's wings and the rank of RAF Air Commodore... so, being ex-RAF I made some enquiries.

It was an honorary rank bestowed upon Churchill as were the pilot's wings. The rank I could understand but not the Pilot's wings.
Here is a snippet for you......regarding the only other known person to be given RAF Wings without actually taking an RAF Flying Test.

Wing Commander 'Buster' Briggs
During a visit of the command he was asked why, as an RAF instructor, he was not wearing pilot’s “wings”. He explained that he had no RAF pilot’s qualification but was instructed to get them sewn on to his uniform without delay. It is believed that the only other unqualified pilot to be given this dispensation was Sir Winston Churchill, who was granted “wings” in his capacity as an honorary air commodore in the RAF.

[ChalkyWhite]

Thanks for that explanation Mel. It all seems a bit ridiculous doesn't it. How can one be granted ' honorary' Wings. One can understand honorary Ranks, etc but Wings, I don't think so. Still in those far off wartime days I guess a bit of the 'ego' trip mentality was as rife as it still is nowadays.

Question. Was Churchill ever granted Honorary Admiral's rank and if so did he wear the FAA pilots Wings on his left cuff?
Thanks again.

Chalky

[Grom]

Iam not fully sure why he got it, although rumour has it in the family it was for bravery
I have no informations regarding Your father. But ofcourse i know where You can find the answere:

Polish Institue and Sikorski Museum
20 Princess Gate
London SW7 1PT

tel: 0171 589 9249 (this might be different but 118 500 have got proper one)

[stewart mcloughlin]

'Goose and Gander' or 'Pot calling Kettle' come to mind with Churchill, where in his WW2 memoirs, Vol. 4, App. 'C', memo to the Sec of S. for Air ... dated 8 October, 1942, para 3.,
"Is it not very absurd that the officers of this ground service (RAF Regt.) should be called pilot officers, flight lieutenants, etc., when they have never flown and are never going to fly? No one ought to be called a pilot officer who has not flown or does not fly. Most people would be ashamed to call themselves pilots of the Royal Air Force when in fact they are never going to get off the ground. I wonder the pilots themselves do not feel rather scornful about this multiplication of borrowed plumes."
Stewart

[herakles]

A most interesting observation Stewart!

Mind you, this notion could be carried much further. For example calling medical practitioners "doctor" when they are holders of Bachelor degrees, not doctorates.

[stewart mcloughlin]

A result from another forum I use,

Winston Churchill was made an Honorary Air Commodore of 615 squadron in 1939, and had earned his wings in pre-WW1

So the Old Man was entitled to wear his wings, which probably explains his comments in the memo. Seemed it may have touched a personal nerve.
Stewart

[stewart mcloughlin]

Further contradictory information now comes to light to the effect that:-

Whilst he was First Lord of the Admiralty, Churchill was taught to fly at Eastchurch. Isle of Sheppey, Kent, but, though he learned to fly, he did not attain a Flying Licence

Stewart

[stewart mcloughlin]

Hopefully this is the definitive.
Thanks to another forumite Chris Elsom.

"The Times comes up with some of the goods.

April 2nd 1943. Air council with approval of the King has awarded Mr Churchill his honorary wings.

In May 1942 The Prime Minister visited Leeming, my Uncle was among the eager aircrew being inspected in a Pathe newsreel. "bomber station in the North". The PM is wearing his Honorary Air Commodore uniform but with no wings.

At Yalta all web images are mostly of the overcoat shots with the exception of 2 at table with cups looking at papers. Uniformed but wingless I 'd say.
In later years....
1951 with wings inspecting Biggin Hill, and there is an oil painting in Uniform with wings.
The No 10 Downing Street website has a link to the newsreel"

Stewart

[Odin]

There have been lots of questions asked in this thread which I feel haven't been fully answered. As my main interest is collecting medals, I would like to try and answer most of the points raised. My answers relate to UK only.

Wearing of Father's and Grandfather's Medals etc:
It seems to be custom and practice for familiy members to wear their fathers' medals etc at services like Rememberance Day. Usually they wear them on the right breast and I have even seen the whole group mounted backwards, so that the group 'mirrors' the way they would have been worn by the original recipient. Service personnel should only wear their own medals when in uniform. There is no law that prohibits people from wearing their father's medals etc but it is illegal to wear official medals that you have not earned if the purpose is to deceive people (ie wearing them on the left side when you didn't earned them - example one man at a recent Rememberance Day service was prosecuted for wearing South Atlantic and Gulf War Medals that he had not earned - they were actually named to someone else).
With regard to wearing your father's medals - my own view is that I have my father's medals and they are nicely mounted up at home. I respect and honour his memory and the service he gave in WWII, but I don't feel the need to march around the streets wearing his medals.

Foreign Medals
In the UK medals are normally seen as being gifts from the sovereign. If you are awarded a foreign medal then you should seek permission to wear it, certainly if you are a serviceman. There are two levels of permission to wear - Unrestricted and Restricted. The first is that you can wear it with UK medals at all times on the left breast, the second (restricted) applies to say if you have a medal awarded by the King of XXXX and then you are attending at official function with him present or say at one of his embassies, then you are allowed to wear it, but it is not to be worn at other times. A good example is the UK officers who were served in Oman at the time of the 15th anniversary of the Sultan. They were awarded the Sultan's Royal Emblem Order in silver and the 15th National Day Medal. They have Unrestricted permission to wear the Order but restricted for the 15th National Day Medal (ie while they were still serving in Oman they were allowed to wear that medal but not after they left their secondment to Oman). I think these rules do technically apply to civilians but I am not aware of any action being taken against civilians for wearing foreign medals that they had earned but didn't have permission for.

I will continue later

[Odin]

Continuing

Order of Wear for UK Medals
The order in which medals are worn in the UK is prescribed by the Central Chancery. The order is:
Victoria Cross and George Cross come before all other medals
British Orders eg Order of the Garter, Order of the Bath, OBE etc
Decorations eg Military Cross, Distinguished Flying Cross
Gallantry and Distinguished Conduct Medals eg Military Medal, Air Force Medal (note most of this class are no longer issued as medals like the Military Cross are now awarded to all ranks)
War Medals in order of date of the campaign (UN and NATO medals are treated as UK awards)
Polar Medals - only one current Polar Medal
Jubilee and Coronation Medals eg Queen's Golden Jubilee Medal
Long Service Awards eg Royal Naval Long Service & Good Conduct Medal
Commonwealth Independence Medals eg Fiji Independence Medal
Foreign Orders in order of date of award
Foreign Decorations in order of date of award
Foreign Medals in order of date of award

Multiple Awards for the Same Campaign
The UK has followed a policy of only having one medal for each campaign. There are exceptions - eg Queen's Medal for Korea - recipients also received the United Nations Medal for Korea. More recently the Government has allowed servicemen to accept awards from other contries but not allowed the recipients to wear them in uniform - this is to try and maintain the single award policy. The First Gulf War is the best example - a campaign medal (Gulf Medal) was awarded to UK servicemen for their part in the campaign. Then Saudi Arabia and Kuwait also offered awards to our service personnel. These they were allowed to kept but not wear - there are always a few exceptions - eg an officer who served in the campaign and then became Military Atachee for Kuwait would be given Restricted Permission to wear his Kuwait Medal whilst in that job.
The 'Pingat Jasa' medal was mentioned earlier. I'm not sure if there is a possible overlap between this and some UK awards eg General Service Medal, hence the reluctance from the UK Government to give permission for wear of this medal.
Not wishing to upset those from Canada, Australia etc but those countries have made further awards where recipients already have UK / UN awards for service eg for Korea, meaning some people have perhaps three awards for one period of service. Personally I think 'how many medals do you want for doing one job?' Also the New Zealand Government has relaxed the conditions for awarding the Naval General Service Medal 1915 (a UK award) for certain camapigns making it easier for NZ personnel to gain this award, not sure this is particularly fair or correct.
I can't answer the query about the Polish award but some UK service personnel did received Polish Orders etc which they were permitted to wear. A few pilots even received and were allowed to wear the Order of Lenin from the USSR.

Wearing Medals on the Right Breast
There is at least one series of medals that can be worn on the right breast, including by servicemen - that is the Royal Humane Society Medals which are awarded for lifesaving / attempted lifesaving. I don't understand the logic for this - perhaps because it is an award not given by the sovereign but is still considered to be an official medal.

Wearing of Unofficial Medals
There is an increased tendancy for veterans to buy from commercial organisiations these unofficial medals. These include The British Legion who issue a National Service Medal for those who did national service. However there are dozens of other awards including British Forces Germany Medal, Hong Kong Service Medal, Arctic Campaign Medal, Allied Ex-Prisoners of War Medal etc etc. Often you see Veterans who have more of these than they have of official medals. Service personnel are not permitted to wear any of these in uniform but as civilians people seem to able to wear what they like. Personally I feel it is sad that people feel the need to buy these. Someone who feels the need to wear a chestful of self awarded (ie purchased) 'bling' medals seems to be trying to say 'look at me and all my service'. I'll say no more.

Finally the Government is redressing the balance with the issue of a Veterans Badge which I believe National Service will qualify for, plus there now are award pins for Arctic Service, Bevin Boys and Land Army Girls - suggesting to me that many of these unofficial medals have passed their sell buy date.

I hope the above helps and sorry if any of my personal views cause any offence.

[Joseph]

I think these rules do technically apply to civilians but I am not aware of any action being taken against civilians for wearing foreign medals that they had earned but didn't have permission for.

As far as 'Chelsea' is concerned there are no rules for civilians and the wearing of Foriegn Orders Decorations and awards, the pensioners can wear them if entitled and do not require permission.

Regards Charles

[astraltrader]

Continuing

Order of Wear for UK Medals
The order in which medals are worn in the UK is prescribed by the Central Chancery. The order is:
Victoria Cross and George Cross come before all other medals
British Orders eg Order of the Garter, Order of the Bath, OBE etc
Decorations eg Military Cross, Distinguished Flying Cross
Gallantry and Distinguished Conduct Medals eg Military Medal, Air Force Medal (note most of this class are no longer issued as medals like the Military Cross are now awarded to all ranks)
War Medals in order of date of the campaign (UN and NATO medals are treated as UK awards)
Polar Medals - only one current Polar Medal
Jubilee and Coronation Medals eg Queen's Golden Jubilee Medal
Long Service Awards eg Royal Naval Long Service & Good Conduct Medal
Commonwealth Independence Medals eg Fiji Independence Medal
Foreign Orders in order of date of award
Foreign Decorations in order of date of award
Foreign Medals in order of date of award

Multiple Awards for the Same Campaign
The UK has followed a policy of only having one medal for each campaign. There are exceptions - eg Queen's Medal for Korea - recipients also received the United Nations Medal for Korea. More recently the Government has allowed servicemen to accept awards from other contries but not allowed the recipients to wear them in uniform - this is to try and maintain the single award policy. The First Gulf War is the best example - a campaign medal (Gulf Medal) was awarded to UK servicemen for their part in the campaign. Then Saudi Arabia and Kuwait also offered awards to our service personnel. These they were allowed to kept but not wear - there are always a few exceptions - eg an officer who served in the campaign and then became Military Atachee for Kuwait would be given Restricted Permission to wear his Kuwait Medal whilst in that job.
The 'Pingat Jasa' medal was mentioned earlier. I'm not sure if there is a possible overlap between this and some UK awards eg General Service Medal, hence the reluctance from the UK Government to give permission for wear of this medal.
Not wishing to upset those from Canada, Australia etc but those countries have made further awards where recipients already have UK / UN awards for service eg for Korea, meaning some people have perhaps three awards for one period of service. Personally I think 'how many medals do you want for doing one job?' Also the New Zealand Government has relaxed the conditions for awarding the Naval General Service Medal 1915 (a UK award) for certain camapigns making it easier for NZ personnel to gain this award, not sure this is particularly fair or correct.
I can't answer the query about the Polish award but some UK service personnel did received Polish Orders etc which they were permitted to wear. A few pilots even received and were allowed to wear the Order of Lenin from the USSR.

Wearing Medals on the Right Breast
There is at least one series of medals that can be worn on the right breast, including by servicemen - that is the Royal Humane Society Medals which are awarded for lifesaving / attempted lifesaving. I don't understand the logic for this - perhaps because it is an award not given by the sovereign but is still considered to be an official medal.

Wearing of Unofficial Medals
There is an increased tendancy for veterans to buy from commercial organisiations these unofficial medals. These include The British Legion who issue a National Service Medal for those who did national service. However there are dozens of other awards including British Forces Germany Medal, Hong Kong Service Medal, Arctic Campaign Medal, Allied Ex-Prisoners of War Medal etc etc. Often you see Veterans who have more of these than they have of official medals. Service personnel are not permitted to wear any of these in uniform but as civilians people seem to able to wear what they like. Personally I feel it is sad that people feel the need to buy these. Someone who feels the need to wear a chestful of self awarded (ie purchased) 'bling' medals seems to be trying to say 'look at me and all my service'. I'll say no more.

Finally the Government is redressing the balance with the issue of a Veterans Badge which I believe National Service will qualify for, plus there now are award pins for Arctic Service, Bevin Boys and Land Army Girls - suggesting to me that many of these unofficial medals have passed their sell buy date.

I hope the above helps and sorry if any of my personal views cause any offence.


I agree with your views Odin - but I do think it wrong that people have to buy an ex-POW medal from a commercial source. It is very wrong that there hasn`t been an official one of these awarded IMHO.

For those that had to endure the ordeal and sometimes sheer horror of captivity there should have been an official medal struck for them.

[Odin]

I would agree that POWs, particularly in the Far East, were treated appallingly, with many of them dying in captivity. However the whole concept of the WWII Campaign Medals was that they covered specific theatres of war with stars for various areas Africa, Italy, Atlantic, Burma, Pacific etc plus the Defence Medal for home service (longest qualifying period of all - 3 years).

So the idea of a POW medal didn't fit easily with that in 1945 when the awards were being devised. It begs the question what about those who were killed in action or wounded? In fairness a POW Medal would also lead to calls for two other awards to cover these categories. Also time spent as a POW did count towards the various stars (France and Germany Star and Pacific Star mainly).

I believe it's not a good idea to try and change something that was decided over 60 years ago, even if it wasn't perhaps the best solution. What is the biggest tragedy is that the UK WWII Medals were all issued unnamed (austere Labour Government policy to save a few shillings) and so if the medals ever pass out of a family, they can become just chunks of metal and the knowledge of the deeds or suffering of the recipient might be lost for all time.

[romft1945]

I have no informations regarding Your father. But ofcourse i know where You can find the answere:

Polish Institue and Sikorski Museum
20 Princess Gate
London SW7 1PT

tel: 0171 589 9249 (this might be different but 118 500 have got proper one)

Thanks for the info will try Cheers Peter

[herakles]

The situation of British medals etc earned by Australians has been a vexed one. Understand that Australians used British passports until about 1958.

There had to be a period when the changeover from awarding moved from being British to Australian. Some overlap had to happen.

Now everything is strictly Australian. No more CBE's etc. Now the Order of Australia is awarded. And recent moves to get Simpson (he of the donkey at Gallipoli) to be awarded a VC, was for him to be awarded an Australian VC.

On the matter of POW's, there is now a memorial for them in Ballaarat Australia. And a fine place it is. I'm not aware of other countries recognising their POW's in this way.

[astraltrader]

I would agree that POWs, particularly in the Far East, were treated appallingly, with many of them dying in captivity. However the whole concept of the WWII Campaign Medals was that they covered specific theatres of war with stars for various areas Africa, Italy, Atlantic, Burma, Pacific etc plus the Defence Medal for home service (longest qualifying period of all - 3 years).

So the idea of a POW medal didn't fit easily with that in 1945 when the awards were being devised. It begs the question what about those who were killed in action or wounded? In fairness a POW Medal would also lead to calls for two other awards to cover these categories. Also time spent as a POW did count towards the various stars (France and Germany Star and Pacific Star mainly).

I believe it's not a good idea to try and change something that was decided over 60 years ago, even if it wasn't perhaps the best solution. What is the biggest tragedy is that the UK WWII Medals were all issued unnamed (austere Labour Government policy to save a few shillings) and so if the medals ever pass out of a family, they can become just chunks of metal and the knowledge of the deeds or suffering of the recipient might be lost for all time.


Odin - I take your point to a certain degree about the possible problem in awarding a special medal for former POW`s 60 years later. Really this is something that should have been thought of after the end of WW2.
Maybe it could have been linked to a campaign medal - like a special clasp.
My point is it is a shame that people feel the need to go to a commercial outlet to buy a medallion in order to pay tribute to a relatives ordeal...

[Odin]

I think the problem with all campaign medals is that you won't please all the people all the time.

Take World War One - the original plan was to issue clasps for the British War Medal to cover the various actions. The Navy actually came up with their list which was approved by George V but the bars were never issued. They included fleet and ship actions including Emden 9 Nov 14, Konigsberg July 15, Jutland 31 May 16 plus sea areas North Sea 1914 etc, and many other categories including action with Land Forces, Operations and even one for 'Q' Ships. And why were these never issued? Because in the end there were about 250 different bars - and that is just for the Navy! The Army and RAF never even issued their lists.

So as fast as you satisfy one requirement another will pop up. I am now of the opinion that it is wrong to keep trying to revisit decisions that were made sixty odd years ago. The end result is a distorted compromise. So perhaps time to let sleeping dogs lie.

[tonclass]

Very interested to see that the Jubilee Medal is placed higher in importance than a LSGC Medal. I always thought it was the other way around............

[nigelweysom]

There have been lots of questions asked in this thread which I feel haven't been fully answered. As my main interest is collecting medals, I would like to try and answer most of the points raised. My answers relate to UK only.

Wearing of Father's and Grandfather's Medals etc:
It seems to be custom and practice for familiy members to wear their fathers' medals etc at services like Rememberance Day. Usually they wear them on the right breast and I have even seen the whole group mounted backwards, so that the group 'mirrors' the way they would have been worn by the original recipient. Service personnel should only wear their own medals when in uniform. There is no law that prohibits people from wearing their father's medals etc but it is illegal to wear official medals that you have not earned if the purpose is to deceive people (ie wearing them on the left side when you didn't earned them - example one man at a recent Rememberance Day service was prosecuted for wearing South Atlantic and Gulf War Medals that he had not earned - they were actually named to someone else).
With regard to wearing your father's medals - my own view is that I have my father's medals and they are nicely mounted up at home. I respect and honour his memory and the service he gave in WWII, but I don't feel the need to march around the streets wearing his medals.

Foreign Medals
In the UK medals are normally seen as being gifts from the sovereign. If you are awarded a foreign medal then you should seek permission to wear it, certainly if you are a serviceman. There are two levels of permission to wear - Unrestricted and Restricted. The first is that you can wear it with UK medals at all times on the left breast, the second (restricted) applies to say if you have a medal awarded by the King of XXXX and then you are attending at official function with him present or say at one of his embassies, then you are allowed to wear it, but it is not to be worn at other times. A good example is the UK officers who were served in Oman at the time of the 15th anniversary of the Sultan. They were awarded the Sultan's Royal Emblem Order in silver and the 15th National Day Medal. They have Unrestricted permission to wear the Order but restricted for the 15th National Day Medal (ie while they were still serving in Oman they were allowed to wear that medal but not after they left their secondment to Oman). I think these rules do technically apply to civilians but I am not aware of any action being taken against civilians for wearing foreign medals that they had earned but didn't have permission for.

I will continue later
Odin thanks for that , i seem to have started quite a discussion (do i get extra points ) in fact your opinion on wearing your fathers medals has made me think , the reason i asked was because i am considering wearing my fathers medals this year , i didnt exactly get on with my father , i guess when you have been thru a war it kind of messes you up ,and researching his naval history has increased my understanding of what he went thru , so again thanks for your opinion
Nigel

[herakles]

Not extra points but I have given it a bag of stars as it is a most interesting thread.

You're so right abut wars ******* up people. And they never talk about their experiences. certainly my father's life was turned upside down and he never recovered from it. King and Country!! Ha!! :rolleyes:

[Odin]

Nigel
I didn't set out to put anyone off wearing family medals. It is purely a matter of personal choice. My choice is I don't.

The order for wearing Jubilee and Coronation Medals is somewhat strange as many people do very little to earn them, but it often takes 15 years plus of undetected crime to get a Long Service Medal. However when Queen Victoria started the series with her Jubilee Medal for 1887, she actually decreed that Jubilee Medals should be worn before all other medals including campaign medals and gallantry awards (not sure if that also included the VC though). This decision was reversed by George V around the start of WW1. So perhaps he thought it would be a bit too much to demote them too far, and put them near the back but not last.

[herakles]

... ...but it often takes 15 years plus of undetected crime to get a Long Service Medal.

Ha! Good point!

[tonclass]

ODIN,
Thanks for the definitive answer regarding Jubilee/LSGC medals. The military give out LSGC medals for 14/15 years service. I find this is ridiculous, as all the civilian jobs that are allowed to apply for the LSGC medal require a minimum of 22 years. This is almost in the 'Gold Watch' band. I can understand why the Monarchy put the Jubilee Medal before the LSGC medal in military circumstances, but as a possible recipient of the LSGC medal for services in the Police (next April) I'm appalled that I can get a JB for 5 years Crown Service, but have to wait 22 years for a LSGC. I know which I would put first !!!!!!!!!

[Joseph]

Rik,

Maybe they take into account that the civilians go home for 15/16 hours a day and get overtime when they do any extra work. I agree the LSGC taking precedence after the Jubilee medals is odd, you earn the LSGC and are given a Jubilee medal.

Recipient of a LSGC medal and carried a warrant card for 18 years. Charles

[Melv.]

Just to add that the RAF LSGC medal for undetected crime was for 18 years service from the age of 17 1/2.
The Navy and Army was for 15 years.
The RAF then stepped into line circa. 1981 at 15 years service to receive the award.
I know this because I had completed my 18 years and received my LSGC medal and a few days later this new timing was announced for issuing the medal.
I have actually seen LSGC RAF medals appear on eBay from people I actually knew in the RAF.....this is very worrying! :D

[Odin]

Rik

I think you've walked into a bit of a minefield there.

The Queen's Golden Jubilee Medal was very widely issued to service personnel and the emergency services. The qualifying criteria was to be serving and have done at least five years on 7 Feb 2002. That was a somewhat arbitary figure to ensure quite a few people got the medal. In all about 366,000 medals were issued.

Compare that to the 1977 Silver Jubilee Medal where just 30,000 UK versions were issued. Then there were loads of complaints from people with many years service to the Queen who missed out and felt they should have got one.

The numbers for some other events are below:
Coronation 1953 - 129,000
Coronation 1937 - 90,000
Jubilee 1935 - 85,234
Coronation 1911 - 15,901

So you can see the 2002 QGJM was far more generously issued but unlike earlier awards very few went to what I would call 'civilians' (if you include the emergency services with the armed services). I think this because the bulk of the cost of producing them was borne by the MOD. So in some ways it broke the previous mould for Coronation/Jubilee Medals and is not typical for that type of medal.

There are a host of different Long Service Medals - the standard for the RN, Army and RAF is now 15 years but the reserves (Volunteer Reserves Service Medal) takes only 10 years service. Ok the Police LS is 22 years but the Fire Brigade LS is less at 20 years (full or part time) and the Special Constabulary LS is only 9 years (with war service counting triple!). Then the Imperial Service Medal for UK personnel is up at 25 years but only awarded on retirement, which means many do 40 years to get it.

And the logic behind all this - I don't know but I suspect it is based around how long people serve in the various organisations ie their career. Until recently the services used to get rid of people when they were still quite young so 15 years didn't seem unreasonable for a LS Medal. I don't know if it applies now but Police used to get full pension at 30 years so 22 years for your Exemplary Service Medal seems about right. Those few civil servants who get the ISM used to need 40 years for a full pension so 25 years for LS seems reasonable. And people don't tend to stay in the Specials now so 9 years is an incentive not to leave too soon.

As with many things medallic a lot of these issues seem to defy logic but perhaps there is some sense in there somewhere.

[tonclass]

My God !! That is a real minefield !!!!!! Thanks for the explanation Odin, you've given me the perfect explanation.

Cheers !!

[nigelweysom]

Nigel
I didn't set out to put anyone off wearing family medals. It is purely a matter of personal choice. My choice is I don't.

The order for wearing Jubilee and Coronation Medals is somewhat strange as many people do very little to earn them, but it often takes 15 years plus of undetected crime to get a Long Service Medal. However when Queen Victoria started the series with her Jubilee Medal for 1887, she actually decreed that Jubilee Medals should be worn before all other medals including campaign medals and gallantry awards (not sure if that also included the VC though). This decision was reversed by George V around the start of WW1. So perhaps he thought it would be a bit too much to demote them too far, and put them near the back but not last.
its OK Odin you haven't put me off ,but i find by considering another opinion it always helps me to clarify in my mind why i am doing some thing
Nigel

[Melv.]

I had forgotten the Queens Jubilee 1977 Medal award.

Yes, just 1 (that's 0NE :D) recipient received the medal on a Squadron of about 80 members in total.
We reckon he was related to the Royal Family anyway.....or it was good copy!

This medal was issued back in the days when very few personnel had medals to wear anyway as so few conflicts had been going on after WW2.
The commonest medal was the GSM. Aden & Borneo mainly and Northern Ireland was making an appearance.

[nigelweysom]

As i started this thread to ask about wearing my Dads medals i thought that i would post this piece about the out come ,
I did wear my Dads medals to this years remembrance service , it did feel a bit strange at first i did wonder how it would look to other people and what their reaction might be , i soon found out that those who were ex service understood exactly what i was doing ,especially as i was wearing them on the right side , and their reaction was to congratulate me for wearing them , and those who did not know simply asked why and i was able to explain and to talk a little of what my Dad did to earn them , my over all reaction to the day was that i was pleased to have worn them , it gave me an opportunity to show a level of respect that i was never able to show when my Dad was alive ,
i don't know if i will ever wear them again, i wonder if it would become less meaningful if i started wearing them every year but i am very pleased to have worn them once .
Nigel

[alanbenn]

Nigel, well done for wearing your Dad's medals, like all walks of life there are some that would agree and some that won't, for you it meant something special and a way as you say to show your respect not just for your Dad but for others too who like your Dad did their bit.

I hope you continue to wear them with pride when the opportunity comes along, as each year passes by there are less and less of the men and women from the war taking part and it will fall to people like yourself to keep their memory alive.

Regards
Alan

[nigelweysom]

Thanks for that Alan , much appreciated
Nigel

[SCRG1970]

Nigel

I have followed the debate on the wearing of parents medals keenly and on reflection it really is down to the individual. You obviously made the choice that was right for you.

This year my eldest grandson marched by my side in our local Rememberance Day parade for the first time. He didnt wear his great-grandfathers medals but has expressed interest in them. I think once he understands the importance and significance of the medals I will be happy for him to wear them. As I said personal decision.

Regards

Gerry

[r.morrison]

Whatever the solution adopted, I think above all one must not allow the actions of our forefathers to merge into the mists of history.

If we live free today, we can only thank our elders for the sacrifices which too many made.

Wearing their medals is one way of opening the publics' eye and thus preserving their memories. Specially pertinent too, as tomorrow we celebrate the Normandy landings......

Best wishes to all

[sheldon]

Churchill as 1st Lord of the Admiralty was instrumental in forming the Royal Naval Air Service in 1912 and took flying lessons to help validate his views on aviation in the war theatre. He achieved his RNAS Wings even though he didn't complete the course because the Government considered it to dangerous for a man in his position to continue flying. By the late period of WW1 the Military and Naval powers knew that Churchills views had become a reality and it was decided to mearge the RNAS and the RFC to form the Royal Air Force. On its Formation all Navy and Army personel changed their uniform and badges to the new RAF design including their wings. As churchil already had his navy wings and was so instrumental in the formation of the RAF he also changed his wings. So technically his wearing of RAF wings was legitimate but I suppose that as he never completed his training, never piloted an aircraft after 1912 and never actually searved in the RAF i guess it was a bit of a liberty on his part but lets face it he was one of the most powerful world leaders at the time and who was going to question him.

[INVINCIBLE]

I had forgotten the Queens Jubilee 1977 Medal award.

Yes, just 1 (that's 0NE :D) recipient received the medal on a Squadron of about 80 members in total.
We reckon he was related to the Royal Family anyway.....or it was good copy!

This medal was issued back in the days when very few personnel had medals to wear anyway as so few conflicts had been going on after WW2.
The commonest medal was the GSM. Aden & Borneo mainly and Northern Ireland was making an appearance.

The original decision was for all serving members of Her Majesty's Armed Forces to be issued with the Silver Jubilee Medal in 1977. The Treasury (who would not be entitled to the medal) said fine but there was insuficient contingency money to pay for it therefore it would have to come out of the Defence budget (the late 70s was a time of financial crisis). In the end the MoD decided that only a very limited issue could be afforded, and in any case that would make the medal much more highly valued!! They were awarded mostly to commanding officers of ships, submarines, squadrons and units, and senior officers). Yes it did cause a lot of resentment by those who believed they should have been entitled to it.

[Odin]

I have a copy of the roll for the 1977 Jubilee Medal. It was allocated to ships etc on a quota basis but not all medals went to the officers.

Looking through the roll quite a few of the medals were awarded to 'the little people' and not all of them went to bigwigs.

A couple of naval examples from the early 'A's
LSA JCP Ackerman RN
LWren G Adamson WRNS

[INVINCIBLE]

I have a copy of the roll for the 1977 Jubilee Medal. It was allocated to ships etc on a quota basis but not all medals went to the officers.

Looking through the roll quite a few of the medals were awarded to 'the little people' and not all of them went to bigwigs.

A couple of naval examples from the early 'A's
LSA JCP Ackerman RN
LWren G Adamson WRNS

Odin,

Many thanks.
Not sure how you managed to get hold of a copy of the roll for the 1977 Jubilee Medal, but well done. Knowledge of the roll is certainly a good way of preventing impostors from trying to wear a medal to which they are not entitled.
As regards the issue of the medal, I was serving in the Naval Secretary’s office at the time and I well remember the extraordinary lengths we had to go to in order to guarantee we had all commanding officers in post on the day of issue (sounds an easy task but it was not). In addition there was a small allocation for each unit, to be decided locally by whatever means they wished (longest serving HM, smartest, best effort, oldest, youngest etc…). I think it was because units were allowed to decide their own criteria, which led to a certain amount of disappointment/envy (nowhere near as much as the resentment generated by “Pay 2000”!). Had criteria been determined centrally based on recommendations from the Fleet then people might have been more likely to consider it fair. The thinking at the time was that by awarding the medal to each unit then that provided a very wide distribution, though of course within a short space of time that spread was diluted.
I think there was resentment also because it was at a time when very few medals were awarded, apart from the GSM and the LS&GC. Many of my colleagues had bare chests, indeed our Admiral had not a single medal ribbon and many years later I was working with a former COMDRAKE and he had not a single ribbon. When working with other NATO navies, the Brits were very conspicuous by there lack of medals seeming to indicate a lack of operational experience and achievements compared with their allies.

[Odin]

The Medal Roll is actually now in the National Archives at Kew (along with the 1953 Coronation Roll) - which seems slightly unusual as they have only recently released some of the Army medals rolls up to WWII (like the India General Service Medal 1936-39). The Navy seem to be lagging behind - I'm still waiting for the release of the Naval General Service Medal roll for Palestine 1936-39.

I agree that many felt unhappy about how the 1977 Jubilee Medal was distributed. That possibly accounts for the approach taken for the 2002 Golden Jubilee Medal where all service personnel (including civilian emergency services, police etc) were given the medal if they had five years service or more. Ironically all VC and GC holders normally get Coronation and Jubilee Medals but for the 2002 Jubilee they were going to stop that but then had a last minute change of heart.

With the old GSM 1962 (Borneo through to N Ireland) many service personnel had perhaps just the one campaign medal with several clasps. Now they have started the Operational Service Medal where you get one medal for each campaign, the same medal but with different ribbons. Technically you could have earned three of them - for Sierra Leone, Democratic Republic of Congo and Afghanistan (ribbons below Afghanistan, Congo and Sierra Leone respectively). Plus there are the various NATO awards and Iraq so many servicemen now have a much larger array of medals than their counterparts of say fifteen years ago.

[fleetchief]

Just to add that the RAF LSGC medal for undetected crime was for 18 years service from the age of 17 1/2.
The Navy and Army was for 15 years.
The RAF then stepped into line circa. 1981 at 15 years service to receive the award.
I know this because I had completed my 18 years and received my LSGC medal and a few days later this new timing was announced for issuing the medal.
I have actually seen LSGC RAF medals appear on eBay from people I actually knew in the RAF.....this is very worrying! :D

In my time, the Navy was 16 years. One Good Conduct badge after 4 years; another after 8 years; another after 12 years; and the LSGC Medal after 16 years. i.e. increments of 4 years. At least that is how long they made me wait for mine.

I remember being an apprentice at HMS Collingwood ans on Ceremonial Divisions a Ch.Elect went up to get the Bar to his LSGC!!! And we all thought, 'My God'.

For interest, the Canadian equivalent is the CD {12 years}. Granted to both Officers and Ratings. The one oddity is that you see things like "Lt.J Bloggs CD", and even more odd "Mr. J. Bloggs CD" for someone retired {Only a few do this}. I've never seen the LSGC added after a name.

At the Citizenship Ceremony, when I became a Canadian, there was a Petty Officer getting his Citizenship, and wearing a CD & Bar!!! An odd rule, that you could serve in the Regular Forces as a Landed Immigrant, but you had to be a Canadian Citizen to serve in the Reserve Forces.

Ed

[MelQuick]

I received my RAF LSGC after 18 years, on the day I passed the Officer Training Course.

As MelV rightly says, the qualifying period was later reduced to 15 years.

Mel

[Dave Hutson]

As i started this thread to ask about wearing my Dads medals i thought that i would post this piece about the out come ,
I did wear my Dads medals to this years remembrance service , it did feel a bit strange at first i did wonder how it would look to other people and what their reaction might be , i soon found out that those who were ex service understood exactly what i was doing ,especially as i was wearing them on the right side , and their reaction was to congratulate me for wearing them , and those who did not know simply asked why and i was able to explain and to talk a little of what my Dad did to earn them , my over all reaction to the day was that i was pleased to have worn them , it gave me an opportunity to show a level of respect that i was never able to show when my Dad was alive ,
i don't know if i will ever wear them again, i wonder if it would become less meaningful if i started wearing them every year but i am very pleased to have worn them once .
Nigel

Hi Nigel,

With Veterans Week coming up I read your post yet again.

I wear my Dad's every year at Veterans Parade and Remmbrance Day Parade. People do ask questions, and I find the youngsters are doing it now. I explain to them that my Dad never returned from the War, dying as a Japanese POW. He never got to wear them and on the occasions I wear them I feel, for a short while, closer to the man who I hardly knew but know the sacrifice he and thousands of others made to maintain our freedom.

Wear them with pride on the Right Side and highly polished.

Dave H

[Forester]

I don't have any medals from my own service, just the Veteran's Badge, and there weren't many medals around while I was in the RAF. The Cold War didn't count as a campaign. :rolleyes:

I have Dad's medals on display, highly polished, along with his Russian and French official commemorative awards and his Yeoman's No 1's Badge. Personally, I'd never wear them - in my mind that privilege was his alone.
He was always annoyed that the Barents sea was supposed to be part of the Atlantic Ocean. As he said - "I spent years on both they're nowt like one another". So I keep his two "Blue Nose" certificates with his photos and record of service.

[gfed]

I can't speak for other Commonwealth Realms, but although it appears to be common belief in Canada that it is permissable to wear a relative's decorations and medals on the right side for Remembrance Day, this is not the case and it is improper to wear anything that you did not receive yourself.

[r.morrison]

In France, one can wear a relative's decoration or decorations on the right side, but only during a ceremony destined to commemorate the actions for which these medals were awarded.
:)

[INVINCIBLE]

In France, one can wear a relative's decoration or decorations on the right side, but only during a ceremony destined to commemorate the actions for which these medals were awarded.
:)

Yes - good point - I have noticed this at various parades in France. Particularly significant when they are parading alongside ex Brit forces. And of course they do all seem to have won an awful lot more medals than the Brits and possibly wear them with more pride. They also seem to hold more parades than we do in the UK, possibly because they tend to hold their forces in higher esteem. Very relevant at this time of year as we approach 11/11.

[Dave Hutson]

I can't speak for other Commonwealth Realms, but although it appears to be common belief in Canada that it is permissable to wear a relative's decorations and medals on the right side for Remembrance Day, this is not the case and it is improper to wear anything that you did not receive yourself.

I respect your opinion gfed but there are ten of thousands who would not agree. Hundreds of thousands [understatement] have given their all and many their lives so that we can voice our opinions. And I for one wear my dad's medals on the right side whenever the occasion arises as a mark of respect and to remember the man who went off to fight and never returned.

Dave H

[INVINCIBLE]

Yes - good point - I have noticed this at various parades in France. Particularly significant when they are parading alongside ex Brit forces. And of course they do all seem to have won an awful lot more medals than the Brits and possibly wear them with more pride. They also seem to hold more parades than we do in the UK, possibly because they tend to hold their forces in higher esteem. Very relevant at this time of year as we approach 11/11.

Following on the point about the French appearing to have won or been awarded a lot more medals than their British counterparts can ODIN advise whether the French issued more different campaign/war medals than the UK? and what about the US? Certainly the Brits do not appear very brave or to have been involved in many campaigns when stood next to most foreign servicemen.

[INVINCIBLE]

Have now found details of French naval decorations and it does not appear as if there were/are such a lot more than those in the UK. Many of the WWII and older medals will of course appear on the right shoulders of people on parade in France over the next few days.

[jainso31]

Picking up on "tonclass"-the LSGC always is at the rear-the monarch's medals take precedence over it.


jainso31

[oldsalt]

Whilst the UK award fewer medals than other coutries it may be a good thing. Just observe almost all other nations service men, mainly senior officers & Presidents, they are swathed in ribbons & orders, some even have them on both breasts, making them look like Christmas trees. The USN used to paint medal ribbons on the bridge sides, do they still do it?

[stontamar]

Whilst the UK award fewer medals than other coutries it may be a good thing. Just observe almost all other nations service men, mainly senior officers & Presidents, they are swathed in ribbons & orders, some even have them on both breasts, making them look like Christmas trees. The USN used to paint medal ribbons on the bridge sides, do they still do it?

The US Navy and Marine Corps units have a host of awards including, but perhaps not exhaustive, Presidential Unit Citation, Navy Unit Commendation, Navy Meritorious Unit Commendation, Battle Efficiency Ribbon, Combat Action Ribbon, Navy & Marine Corps Overseas Service Ribbon, Sea Service Deployment ribbon, Navy Artic Service Ribbon, Navy Recruiting Service Ribbon, Marine Corps Recruiting Ribbon, Navy Recruit Training ribbon, Marine Corps Drill Instructors Ribbon, Marine Corps Security Guard Ribbon, Navy Rifle Marksmanship Ribbon, Navy Pistol Marksmanship Ribbon, Navy Ceremonial Guard Ribbon, Naval Reserve Sea Service Ribbon, etc, etc ---

I failed to find the Mummy I Left Home Ribbon, I Applied for a Passport Ribbon and I Don’t Want to Leave the USA Ribbon – ridiculous.

stontamar