Bow Rake Evolution

[John Odom]

One of the most obvious chasnges in warship design from 1900 to 1945 is the shape (specificaly the rake) of the bow.even by 1915 the change had occurred. Compare the cruiser USS Olympia's bow to that of the USS Saint Paul, recently discussed. Or compare the pre-Dreadnaught HIJMS Mikasa (built by Vickers) to the USS New Jersey.

The Olympia and the New Jersey are on opposite sides of the Delaware river at Philadelphia and the difference is striking.

What were the factors and thinking that influenced each of these designs?

In the older ships the bow at waterline is ahead of the top of the bow. Later ships, it is much the opposite.

[BCRenown]

Excellent question John. An explanation I read several years ago said that early steel-hulled, turreted warships had their forward guns mounted very close to the bows which would make any bow overhang would be highly susceptible to muzzle blast damage. Therefore, ram bows remained in service. As speeds of warships increased it was found neccessary to site the forward guns further aft, entailing a longer forecastle for better seakeeping and reduced spray interference. With the bows now further away from the guns, overhangs in the form of clipper and raked stems could be adopted for further improvements in seakeeping.

Monty

[John Odom]

Thanks, I expected a plethora of opinions, but got little response. Were the "Ram Bows" actually used for ramming?

[chris westwood]

isn't the shape of the hull a factor in this?
If the hull, forward has any degree of tumblehome, then a forwardly raked bow is difficult if not impossible to incorporate into a design. The Zumwalt class destroyer concept illustrates this.

I doubt very much whether ram bows in steel victorian/edwardian era warships were actually designed for ramming. The increased power, accuracy and range of weapons and their effect on tactics IMHO would have precluded that. However such a bow looked aggressive and purposeful. Early torpedo boats and torpedo boat destroyers would have been ships with the most opportunity for ramming since they engaged their targets at close quarters. Although some had bows that projected near the water line, I don't think they were 'ram' bows as such, and the tactic as far as I know was rarely used.

Clipper bows in steel warships seem to go in tandem with bulbous bows below the waterline, and maybe this shape seems to have evolved because of paying increased attention to hydrodynamics.

[CGRET]

The clipper bow was added on to the Prinz Hugen and her sister ships after completion. So not always the case in those days.

As for the clipper bow as mention in the first post is close enough to the mark, with respect to speed and reduce spray on the foredeck.

Regards
Charles

[chris westwood]

The clipper bow was added on to the Prinz Hugen and her sister ships after completion. So not always the case in those days.

As for the clipper bow as mention in the first post is close enough to the mark, with respect to speed and reduce spray on the foredeck.

Regards
Charles
yes although major german warsdhips did have the bulbous bow below the waterline, before they had the clipper bows asdded.

[patroclus]

In the RN the "Lord Nelson" Class were the last ships with genuine ram bows i.e. specially strengthened and intended for ramming. Their successors, from the DREADNOUGHT onwards, had the appearance of ram bows but these were cosmetic - allegedly DREADNOUGHT was given a ram bow because Fisher liked the look. However, I understand that the effect was somewhat similar to the modern bulbous bow.

[BB60]

Thanks, I expected a plethora of opinions, but got little response. Were the "Ram Bows" actually used for ramming?


I read an article (I wished that I had kept it) years ago that discussed the effect of the the Battle of Lissa on battleship design for years, long after the expanding range of guns negated the usability of rams. Essentially it postulated that after the Austrians won battle, more or less by closing with the Italians and ramming a goodly number of their ships, designers assumed that battleships would still rely on rams to dispatch their adversaries and built ships with ram bows long after such bows had outlived their usefullness.

Old habits tend to die hard and am willing to suspect that navies finally grew weary of the wet bows and washed out casemate guns and realized that they could sink a ship with gunfire long before and far more safely than ramming. Also better seakeeping was badly needed to maintain the usability of the forward guns in less than smooth seas.

[terreplein]

In the RN the "Lord Nelson" Class were the last ships with genuine ram bows i.e. specially strengthened and intended for ramming. Their successors, from the DREADNOUGHT onwards, had the appearance of ram bows but these were cosmetic - allegedly DREADNOUGHT was given a ram bow because Fisher liked the look. However, I understand that the effect was somewhat similar to the modern bulbous bow.

And of course, Dreadnought was about the only dreadnought to ram an enemy in anger, sinking U.29.

[Marek T]

According to O. Parkes on "ram bow" ships the waterline could be lenghtened and displacement increased without making silhuette too large.

We must remember, that until introduction of steam turbines the easiest way to increase speed of a ship was to make her longer and add a few HP.

I doubt if by the end of XIXth century anyone seriously considered an idea of battleship ramming another battleship. The energy of such a collision equals a simultaneous explosion of tens (30? 50? - doesn't matter) of mines - disastrous to both ships.

[culverin]

Well, the ram bow of the RN battleship HMS Camperdown did a pretty effective job of sending the Med fleet flagship HMS Victoria to the bottom on 22 June 1893. Damage control on Victoria was somewhat lacking but it cost exactly half her crew their lives, 358 including the Admiral.
Her wreck was discovered a few years ago off the Lebanon and she hit the bottom bows first, which is how she remains. Additional evidence of the purpose and strength of the ram bow.
Also look at the new USS Zumwalt artists impressions. She looks more like something designed in 1905 not 2005 with that bow.

[Marek T]

Well, the ram bow of the RN battleship HMS Camperdown did a pretty effective job of sending the Med fleet flagship HMS Victoria to the bottom on 22 June 1893 ...
The same almost happened to German LEIPZIG in October 1944, though there was no ram bow on the PRINZ EUGEN.
I think back in 1970s there was an article in "Warship International" stating that after experience of battle of Lissa of 1866 ramming was not seriously considered by any navy, despite results of that battle.

[whalecatcher]

Marek T writes:

I think back in 1900s there was an article in "Warship International" stating that after experience of battle of Lissa of 1866 ramming was not seriously considered by any navy, despite results of that battle

The definitive publication on the subject is indeed the article: "Ramming":. by David K brown and Philip Pugh. *WARHIP 1990*, Conway Maritime Press, 1990.

In WW II, the effectiveness of the tactic was analysed. A U-Boat destroyed saved about 14 merchant ships. An operational escort saved two or three ships per year. Given that an escort damaged in a ram-attack was out of commission for 5.5 weeks on average , this works out t o about the loss of 0.4 merchant ships. in 1942 rammings accounted for 20% of the U-Boats destroyed. After that ramming was discouraged, because Depth Charge with primers set to very shallow depths, and the Torpex filling increased the lethal radius of the charge by about 20 feet.

Whalecatcher

[culverin]

Zumwalt DDG 1000 and the shape of her bow.

It is becoming increasingly apparent that future ships of all sizes, both military and civilian, will be adopting what to the eye appears to be a ram bow.
It now masquerades under a number of different monocles, depending on the architects and designers, but this feature looks as if it is heading for Worldwide acceptance.

However, at the end of the day it is really only a reconfigured Stem leading to a bulbous type bow.

In recent months i have seen many artists impressions of all manner of projected ships.
Great changes are looming.