Seeking early WWII (1940) photos of HMAS Vampire in camouflage paint scheme

[Michael Eisenstadt]

All:

I was wondering if any forum members have pictures of HMAS Vampire in her early war (1940) light grey/dark grey camouflage scheme?

Two photos of the midships of Vampire while she was wearing this scheme can be found in the Australian War Memorial (AWM) online database (see photos no. 133526 and 133539). I am a model builder and trying to gather more information about this scheme.

Please note that as far as I can tell, this was a different scheme than that worn by Vampire when she was lost in 1942 (a number of photos of HMAS Vampire in the latter scheme can be found in the AWM online database).

Any help on this matter would be greatly appreciated.

Sincere thanks!

Yours truly,

Mike Eisenstadt

[herakles]

Welcome to the forum Mike. I don't have the photo you need. I hope someone else does here.

[spruso]

What happened to my posting with two photos of Vampire?

[spruso]

Here they are again

[herakles]

What happened to my posting with two photos of Vampire?

It looks like a moderator deleted his other thread with your post in it. I was going to delete it until I noticed you had posted there. Thanks for posting the pics again.

[astraltrader]

Can someone please explain why we have two identical threads with the same content. I dont know what you mean Herakles about "some moderator" deleting a thread but "some moderator" ought to delete one of them. Unless someone can explain why they should both remain then I will delete one of them at the end of the day...

[herakles]

The member posted his comments twice. Once in the RN and again in the RAN.

Before I could delete the RN one, another member had posted there.

I was going to move his post to the RAN thread then delete the RN one but someone beat me to it by deleting the RN one and hence destroying the other member's post, which is why he asked where it had gone. Or so it appeared to have happened as it disappeared.

And why he posted it again in the RAN thread.

I have now found the RN thread and deleted it.

I hope you can understand this.

[astraltrader]

Fair enough Herk - you have obviously sorted out the duplication.

[Michael Eisenstadt]

All:

I apologize for the duplicate posting on the RN and RAN threads. Since Vampire was originally a RN ship, I thought it would be prudent to post in the RN thread as well, in case there are people who don't visit both the RN and RAN threads.... Sorry to make more work for the moderators.

As for the photos posted by spruso, thank you very much for taking the time and effort to post these. Unfortunately, those are of Vampire wearing her 1942 scheme, which I am familiar with, and for which there is reasonable documentation. She apparently wore a different scheme in 1940, and this is the one I'm trying to get a handle on. As far as I know, we only have the two photos from AWM in published sources.

Therefore, any help by any board reader on the 1940 scheme would be greatly appreciated.

Many thanks!

Mike Eisenstadt

[herakles]

Don't worry about it Mike. It was a good idea in retrospect to post in both places. It's a pity you didn't mention the RN connection though. This would have made posting in the RN forum clearer.

[doug.birch]

Is the HMAS Vampire at the maritime museum in Sydney, the Australian built ship?doug.birch

[spruso]

Hi Mike.

Was was the second pattern done during her refit at Singapore? I'm assuming the first pattern would have been done in the Med. so any reference to it, and photos, may be held by the National Archives in London. I believe they now also hold the photos from the Imperial War Museum as well.

I researched the first and second camo on HMAS Perth some years ago at the NA in Sydney. I found info on her second pattern but nothing on the first which was also done in the Med. There is very little on RAN Camo info in the Australian NA and mostly deals with a few minesweepers.

How did you find out that Vampire had two patterns?

Cheers
Bruce

[Michael Eisenstadt]

Doug:

The HMAS Vampire that is the subject of my "quest" was built in the UK late in WWI and transferred to Australia thereafter. See served in the RAN during WWII, and was lost in action in 1942.

Spruso:

My conclusion that HMAS Vampire wore an earlier light/dark grey scheme in 1940 is based on visual evidence from two photos on the Australian War Memorial web site. Here is a link to the page with the two photos (hope this works):

http://cas.awm.gov.au/TST2/cst.acct_master?surl=1396626422ZZKPNFXEAJXI47924&stype=4&simplesearch=&v_umo=&v_product_id=&screen_name=&screen_parms=&screen_type=RIGHT&bvers=4&bplatform=Microsoft%20Internet%20Explorer&bos=Win32

They are photos number 133526 and 133539. If you look carefully, you will see irregular light and dark grey panels on the bridge wings, stacks, and most clearly, the searchlight platform amidship (particularly the view of the searchlight platform in photo number 133539).

Let me know what you think, and if anyone has additional photos of this scheme.

V/R

Mike E.

[Michael Eisenstadt]

All:

If you hit the link in my previous post, it will bring you to the AWM search home page. Just put in each photo number I provided (but do two separate searches) in the "Enter Search Term(s)" box, and you will get the two photos I mention.

Hope this helps!

Regards,

Mike

[spruso]

Hi Mike,
I've looked at the photos from the AWM on Photoshop where I could increase their size. This is my opinion.

1. I think the darkened areas on the searchlight tower and the bridge wings are dark colored canvas that fit into the camo pattern on the photo I put up of Vampire camouflaged.

2. The differences in the irregular tone of the patterns I believe is caused by the direction of the sunlight which seems to be pretty bright.

3. There appears to be a difference in paint tones on the foremast leg which once again could fit the camo pattern of my photo.

4. I am wondering if they would have had time to repaint the camo in Singapore when she was refitted.

Having said all that, don't take what I say as gospel - it is just some more information to weigh up before you make your decision.

Good luck with your model and let's see it.
Cheers
Bruce

[Michael Eisenstadt]

Bruce:

Thanks for taking the time to examine the photos and rendering an opinion.

I've considered the possibility that the 1941-42 scheme or some earlier variant thereof was worn in 1940 as well, and based on a quick perusal of the photos, it seems to me that there are some areas where the schemes are consistent, and others where they seem to be inconsistent.

Let me do a more detailed study, and get back to you.

Again, thanks for taking the time to consider this matter.

Yours truly,

Mike

[John Brown]

A small but reasonably clear picture....


Regards...John

[Michael Eisenstadt]

John:

I believe that is another picture of her in 1941-1942 after her early war modifications. She appears to have lost her searchlight platform (between the fore and aft torpedo tubes--and the aft torpedo tubes would have been landed as well by this time).

But thank you so much for posting this photo.

Yours truly,

Mike E.

[kookaburra]

Michael,

Just checking your reply to John above: The caption on this photo as it appears in the Time-Life Books series, Australians at War: Royal Australian Navy Time-Life Books Australia (1988) says...

In her Mediterranean warpaint, HMAS Vampire conducts a ship-to-ship transfer. During an air attack on the Vampire on July 1, 1940, Gunner J.H. Eldicott became the R.A.N.'s first battle fatality of the war.

However, having once directed an overseas bureau which serviced Time-Life books, I can tell you that the research and expertise brought to bear in such series was by no means always as first-rate as the famous title names suggest. They were very much done on the cheap, simply culling from public sources, and the 'Australians At War' series, to my mind were very much an example of that.

Beyond this I've had a pretty good look through many ships books here, and fear you are going to find another camouflage pattern image of Vampire very hard to find.
Images of the other Australian V's, Waterhen and Stuart, for some reason, are much easier to locate.

Here's a larger version of that image for you to check. Kookaburra.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v460/Bronteboy/HMASVampireMediterranean.jpg

[Michael Eisenstadt]

Dear Kookabura:

Alas, Kookabura, that photo is not from 1940, but from much later, perhaps late 1941-early 1942, as she has already been modified by the removal of her searchlight platform, etc. But again, many sincere thanks for taking the time to help.

Be well.

Yours truly,

Mike