hallo

[albion]

hi guys im dave from west london . do a lot of naval reading get down to portsmouth a s much as i can , taking pics of the ships in port . when the weathers bad do military modelling at home . like this site very intresting forgive me my bloopers when i get something wrong!!!!!!
cheers
dave:D

[Commodore Armiger]

Is that Brighton & Hove, West Brom, Perfidious or HMS??? Albion that is.

[albion]

Is that Brighton & Hove, West Brom, Perfidious or HMS??? Albion that is.

its the old name for britain from hms albion

[astraltrader]

Welcome to the forum Dave...

[Joseph]

Welcome Dave hope you enjoy it here.

Regards Charles

[herakles]

I add my greetings also Dave.

Perfidious eh? Interesting.

[historydavid]

The guy would appear to have French connections, hek.

[Commodore Armiger]

History David & Herakles:

No, our new member isn't French, nor is he perfidious. It was I CA who listed several Albions: Brighton & Hove and West Bromwich have football clubs of that name, HMS Albion was another thought, and, as a joke, I added "perfidious".

In case anyone is wondering what the heck "perfidious" has to do with Albion, here is an extract from Wikipedia:

"Albion" is an ancient name for Britain.

The coinage of the phrase in its current form, is conventionally attributed to Augustin, Marquis of Ximenez, a Frenchman who in a 1793 poem wrote:

"Attaquons dans ses eaux la perfide Albion."

which means "Let us attack perfidious Albion in her waters." In this context, Britain's perfidy was political: in the early days of the French Revolution many in Britain, had looked upon the Revolution with mild favour, but following the overthrow and execution of Louis XVI, Britain had allied herself with the other monarchies of Europe against the Revolution in France. This was seen by the revolutionaries in France as a "perfidious" betrayal.

"La perfide Albion" became a stock expression in France in the 19th century, to the extent that the Goncourt brothers could refer to it as "a well-known old saying". It was utilised by French journalists whenever there were tensions between France and Britain, for example during the competition for colonies in Africa culminating in the Fashoda incident.

Dave:

You will find that, while this forum is a wonderful centre for all sorts of naval interests, both commonplace and esoteric, its members can all too easily be side-tracked. This has been a classic example of the latter. Don't get put off!

[astraltrader]

Perfideo, Perfidere [lat]. The French could never be original!

[herakles]

Interesting CA. In fact I never suggested that Albion was French. And I was aware of the meaning and origin of perfidious Albion and that Albion has an old meaning.

I for one would never cast a disparaging comment about any member.

That aside, the term is still often used and still retains its derogatory meaning.

As far as the French using Latin words, one doesn't have to look far to find other examples of that. Most languages used in the last 2000 years owe the Greeks and the Romans a lot for their language. It's worth reflecting just how much of English has a French origin.

[astraltrader]

All that is obvious. IMO it is much more interesting to find out how many English words derived from say the Raj...

[herakles]

Indeed. English is a real Heinz 57 isn't it.

The influence from India is I feel declining except for words like khaki of course.

[astraltrader]

Not at all it has become so common there are literally hundreds if not thousands of words in everyday use that directly come from the Raj.

[astraltrader]

Off the top of my head as well as the obvious Posh take a word like loot - one would think that had been around for hundreds of years - it omes from the hindu - lut to pillage and arrived in normal English useage in about 1850!
Other things - people say "he had a dikky heart" - that comes from Dikku hindu for troublesome.
Char.
Thug.
Bungalow.
Verandah.
Juggernaught.
Gymnkhana.
Pyjamas.
Jamboree.
The expression people often use for a nutter - "he was Doali tap" From memory Doali [not sure of spelling] was a British Army hospital near Calcutta and Tap is the hindu word for fever!
Anyhow I could go on and on - take it from me there are loads!

[astraltrader]

Jungle.
Cot.
Joghpur.
Cashmere.
Dungaree.
Shampoo.
Anyway it might be interesting to open a thread in shore leave about it sometime...

[astraltrader]

Pukka.
Chit.
chintz.
sorbet.
chutney , bandana, curry,dolly, dinghy, guru, hookah, mogul, kedgeree, polo, pundit, etc etc...

[herakles]

I'm not sure there are thousands!

Trying to pin this down means firstly being clear on what "Indian" means in this context - Hindi, Sanskrit, Urdu or Tamil for starters. Each has contributed words. Then there are some words from elsewhere, like bandicoot, calico, mongoose and pyjamas.

Then, as I suggested above, some words that entered English have left it again or are on the way out like pukka, pundit, toddy, doolally and the such.

Certainly some words are going to stay - bangle, caravan, cot, jungle, loot etc.

It's tempting to think that all these words all arrived because of the days of the Raj. Most have but some have come by a devious route from Sanskrit.

This is a very big topic! Perhaps not the place here.

[astraltrader]

Virtually all of them achieved everyday use because of the Raj and since - it is still evolving...

[astraltrader]

even your avatar comes from the same source!

[Stan.J]

Hallo Dave, and welcome to the site.You see how we all wander sometimes, It is great though! Cheers Stan

[herakles]

Yes it does. A recent addition. Though what our use has to do with the original - incarnation - is hard to fathom out.

[astraltrader]

There is a common theme - CA decided to be witty using words!

[Commodore Armiger]

Indeed, I must be going "Dolally"!

Deolali is 100 miles north-east of Bombay. It was the original location of the (British) Indian Army Staff College.

It is also the source of the British slang noun doolally tap, loosely meaning "camp fever", and referring to the apparent madness of men waiting for ships back to Britain after finishing their tour of duty. By the 1940s this had been widely shortened to just "dolally", an adjective meaning "mad" or "eccentric". The town was the setting for the first four series of the British sitcom It Ain't Half Hot Mum, set in 1945. (Wiki)

[astraltrader]

Like I said CA - it was right off the top of my head with the geography - nevertheless if you read what I wrote that was the point I was making. As I said Tap is the hindu word for fever and I was pointing out that particular slang phrase is used for people who had camp fever or "gone troppo!" I was told that Deolali was the Army camp HQ that also contained a sanitorium - but if you say it was only the Staff college I stand corrected.
I apologise for not researching the point carefully but I was racing through as many words or expressions that are used in English with a Raj or Hindu root derivative as I could think of in a matter of minutes.
At least we agree the phrase did come from the Raj - which was the point I was making...

Anyway Sir, the whole wandering thread can be blamed on you for your attempted wit by playing on the word Albion and giving us the "perfidious Albion" definition which I would have hoped was not a revelation to many of the people in the forum - but maybe it was:D