The role and future of the 'Shore Leave' forum

[herakles]

The existence of non-naval threads at the forum is something that has been hovering in the background for some time. It has emerged again and hence I felt it was time to bring it out into the open.

The Shore Leave forum is here to discuss non-naval matters. As is Everything Else, ever since posting there doesn't earn you any points.

It arose over the issue of the various "Mystery" threads. They have now been merged into one. One member said that they have no role here as the forum should exist solely for naval matters. Another member disagreed. I posted a couple of replies to that and I place them here again for you to read them. There are other non-naval threads too.

"There are some threads that have little or nothing to do with naval matters. And they have been popular judging by the number of members posting in them."

"Let me raise another matter. There are loads of forums on the net and quite a few dealing with the matters we deal with here. It's a competitive world. If we are to attract more members - and there's no doubt we need them - this forum has to be seen to be attractive to potential members. Otherwise this forum will descend into a private members club. Perhaps that's what the existing membership wants. I really don't know.

Personally I don't see the harm in having a small amount of relief. I really would like other members to give their opinions on this. I think we are at a stage of our development where this issue has to be addressed.

I have the feeling that new members will feel confident enough to start posting in threads that are not threatening to them. The expertise here is quite daunting! :)

I'm happy to go with the flow. If only I knew what the flow is!!"

So please give your opinions so we can discuss the matter sensibly and find out just what members want.

[BB60]

Herk,

As apparently the only Septic lurking about, I'll add my two cents worth.

I like the Shore Leave aspect of the forum as it set up now. Good discussion is often a by-product of good relationships and the Shore Leave section, in my opionion helps to foster that aspect. To be honest, I don't always have an interest in the various aspects of the Royal Navy, especially starting threads, as I am not all that knowledgeable about it's history. But the interest generated by the various quizes (I like trivia) garners my interest and gives me good reason to check the forum everyday. When I do, I then often see items that catch my, even if I do not post in them.

[Commodore Armiger]

I have always held the view that a Forum about "World Naval Ships" should be just that. There are more sites that you can shake a stick at that cater for chat. Or one can send private messages about non-naval matters and keep them from swamping the site.

OK so we got "Shore Leave" to cover the non-serious stuff. Fair enough. And the quizzes have attracted no end of interest judging by the number of views. I thought that "What city?" was rather educational if not naval related, but then it was about shore leave! As for "What castle?" and "What colony?", both were actually naval related (vicariously in the case of the castles where the winner had to produce a photo of the corvette of that name) and shouldn't really form part of shore leave. "Mystery ship" wasn't a quiz at all as far as I understood it, but members wanting other members to identify photos of vessels unknown to them.

I must say my hackles were raised slightly when I came across discussion of football recently, but ho hum I suppose football forms part of shore leave.

I'm off on a short break to Tallinn soon and promise not to post any holiday snaps on my return - unless they have a naval connection.

[astraltrader]

CA - I dont know where you got the idea that the Mystery Ship Quiz was for people trying to find the identity of a ship and inviting others to contribute an answer. It is even more surprising bearing in mind you yourself have used it for the purpose it was designed for - putting up a picture of an obscure warship and challenging others to identify it.
From memory you posted a picture of a Turuma class frigate and wanted someone to identify the class [which I did]. Then you posted a picture of
HMS SANDOWN - later ENS ADMIRAL COWAN - Sold to Estonia which Rik identified. You seemed to understand the Quiz then. It has not changed.

Shore leave can be used for anything at all [that is not offensive] - Football, Cars or even Teflon Saucepans!

[Commodore Armiger]

Clearly I must be mixing that thread up with something else. Grovelling apologies. Why don't we just have a quiz page, a chat page and leave the rest to serious business?

[astraltrader]

Apology accepted. Actually I agree with what you say about everything else - but surely that is what we do already, except the Quizzes come out of Shoreleave. My problem with the Quizzes is purely if one uses the "Quick Links" facility and then "todays posts" all the Quizzes are there taking up space that more important Naval topics should fill...

[Commodore Armiger]

Isn't there a technical solution? It was possible for example to tweak things so that "shore leave" posts don't score for promotion.

I must say I have most fun when attempting in my amateur way to help people with their research. "All at Sea" today was a good example. I learn a lot searching, the "newbie" hopefully learns something useful, perhaps important, and others may find something of interest too. Such posts need all the attention we can give them and b****r the rest.

What I would really like to see is an index of pictures posted (grouped by nation and/or category - b'ship, cruiser, etc). There's some wonderful - and rare - stuff in here now. Less easy would be an index of articles about particular ships and classes. "Search" is OK if you have a clear idea of what you are looking for.

[astraltrader]

You lost me there CA as Shore leave doesn`t post-score...

[astraltrader]

I couldn`t agree more about your suggestion about an index of photographs - but I am not sure how feasible that would be. Perhaps Kc could comment on this?

[John Brown]

My view..

As you may recall I was one of those originally concerned that the forum was becoming simply a tacky chat room. Members seemed to be joining just to pass time talking about their personal lives and circumstances and it was frustrating wading through these posts to find something naval or at least Military.

The Shore leave section was therefore a good idea as far as I am concerned. I don't have to look there If I don't want to but I do enjoy the quizzes. The very first person to reply to Terrys original post in the Mystery Ship quiz was KC himself. I guess therefore, that he has no problems will these bits of fun. Like Commodore, I enjoy helping other people in their research and learn a lot myself whilst doing it. However, I find I also learn a lot from researching quiz questions to post or to answer.

One thing that has become apparent is that we should all read the first entry in any new thread very carefully to ensure we are clear on what the subject really is.

Above all we should keep in mind that participating in any forum should be enjoyable and with a little give and take it should be.


Regards....John

[astraltrader]

Another thing that is related to this, that should be improved/altered in my opinion is the Everything else section. Since Sailor rather unhelpfully decided it should have no post count it is [as I predicted] now no longer used. Before this it was used for all non-naval but serious topics - like Aircraft , Military etc. Currently we are now geting interesting info/pictures of things like Titanic, Lusitania creeping into other Naval sections whereas they should be in Everything else.
I would like to see Shore leave left as is for lighter chatty subjects and a serious Everythingelse restored with a post-count to encourage all other military, Aviation. Merchant Ships, Passenger Liners info/pictures to go in there. It was always well used when I first joined here...

[BB60]

I would like to see Shore leave left as is for lighter chatty subjects and a serious Everythingelse restored with a post-count to encourage all other military, Aviation. Merchant Ships, Passenger Liners info/pictures to go in there. It was always well used when I first joined here...

I would tend to agree with this suggestion.

[Stan.J]

I agree with Terry, however, I would like to see posters asking questions in regard to the First world war, ships, etc, using the threads available for them and not using others. (Just a small moan however,)Cheers ,Stan

[kc]

You guys are hard to please. :)

I thought I had it nailed initially by having the 'Everything Else' section for, well, everything else - things that weren't covered by the categories. We had a discussion and it was asked of me to add another section for everything else - this being the shore leave section which does not add to post counts.

What I would propose to do is this:

1. Restore post counts to the Everything Else section - this is easy to do.

2. Leave shore leave as it is, except try to find a way to remove that section from the daily post sections (or whatever you call it - I personally don't use that at all, but I know some do.)

3. Take this opportunity to remind all mods that they have the power to merge / move / delete etc threads should they see fit. The forum has now become so busy (or is it me that is busy?!) that I cannot physically read every post as I used to. Thankfully I have had no reports of spam since I upgraded the system and although some people have to wait maybe a day or so to be 'vetted', I think this is far better than the mountains of spam we would have had if we had carried on with the old sytem.

I digress.

An interesting point about an index of photos though. The main (non-forum) part of the site is supposed to be a directory of sorts. However, I agree it is getting quite old looking with a lot of old and small photos on it that have been there for up to a decade. I am however putting a lot of work into a new system - a cross-referencing database which holds all of the ships mentioned on the main part of the website. I have already begun and will continue to enter all of our own (the website) photos and those posted to the forum (a selection only - pm me if this is a concern). Unfortunately, as this is not a profit making site and we have to fund with our art websites, it has taken a bit of a back seat so far as updates go lately, simply because we have been involved in massive upgrades to our servers and systems - essentially 50 websites have been rewritten from scratch. In addition to photos, I have also begun processing articles and assigning them relevance to ships and classes, so that these articles will be associated with the ships in them. An example would be a Battle of Jutland or Battle of Tsushima article which would obviously cover many ships, or the recent posts regarding HMS Exeter which would obviously just concern that ship.

It is a massive task which I have been doing for a few months on and off now. I would hope to have it completed by maybe December if all goes well. We have a lot of articles and photos in reserve here which are screaming to see the light of day but we just haven't had the time available to us to get them on the sites.

Let me know what you all think and I'll try and fix it, although I'll probably need to change it back again in a few months. :p

[Commodore Armiger]

I think this is my opportunity as an enthusiastic amateur to thank KC and the other moderators for all their efforts over the last months. The Forum, like Topsy, has just "growed", and inevitably there have been growing pains. But we do appreciate all the work and the chance the forum gives us both to contribute and to learn. What did I know about USS Vesuvius a few months ago, or HMS Captain, or the fate of HMS Exeter? A bit but not much. Now I have had the chance to help discover something of HMS Hind for a new member and the number of aircraft aboard HMS Ark Royal for another. Not earth-shattering, but rewarding.

Keep it up everyone - and KC, your latest plan looks good, challenging. but the right way to go in my view.

[Maritime Michael Ian]

I would like to add my thanks to KC too for all his hard work.... the mind boggles at the amount of work needed to keep this site going, makes my on-line autobigraphy look positively miniscule in comparison.

Re the general 'chat' on the subject... I agree with most of what has been said, and especially Terry's contribution.

Ian

[astraltrader]

Thank you Kc for responding so positively to the various suggestions made. I think your blueprint for the next six months or so seems excellent.
My only slight concern is making sure that members understand what can go in Everything Else rather than Shore Leave.

If that is fully understood the end product will be the main forum being kept strictly Naval and yet also allowing the encouragement of quality co-related non-naval material by the re-establishment of Everything Else.

Members here who also from time to time visit other [lesser!] forums will know this format is pretty well the norm. For example other naval forums all have a general military/aviation area. Forums like Aircraft of WW2 all have a Naval area. To fully understand the part played by the Navy in for example operations as diverse as Dunkirk and D-Day - then the parts played by the various Armies and Airforces also need to be understood.

Finally I feel this way forward will attract a greater number of quality members. People with an interest in Military History rather than just Naval History for example will find the forum more interesting whilst at the same time keeping the main body of World Naval Ships even more strictly on topic which will satisfy the Naval purists!

[kc]

Great!

Whie I accept that there is a way forward, I understand astraltrader's concern that the system may be mis-used (not abused I hasten to add)

There are a lot of new people coming to the site daily. Inevitably a large proportion are looking for info of relatives and the ships they served on. Historically this is what our sites specialises in.

The task is eductation - where posts should go. Do I make it vey difficult for new members to add to the new members section when they should really be reading other posts elsewhere, or do I let them post in the new member section, hoping they have looked at other threads before posting? I think we are ok as it stands but moving threads may become more of a demand as the forum continues on. We have got rid of spam, so mods have little to do other than direct threads to the right section, and I trust every one of them to make a good decision rather than ask me for confirmation - please move threads around as you see fit.

To go off this topic slightly, as most of you know I take orders from above concerning most of the site and the general acceptable content. What I / we have noticed recently is a number of off-site links in threads where they are in our view unnecessary. What I would urge users to note and mods to look out for is off-site links which do not necessarily relate to the thread. I expect to (have to) be clamping down on these in the future - we do not exist to advertise others. Having said that, legitimate off-site links are perfectly acceptable of course. What I'm getting at is where one ship is mentioned in a thread and a reply is given saying : why not look at xandy.com as they have a great page.

Wow, I hate to be heavy handed but we need all we can get to exist.

As regards 'The Database' I might be asking for help soon from you (more knowledgeable folk) as it progresses. As you all know pennant numbers and such can be hard to define during WW2 at best, and photos of some ships are hard to get.

[tonclass]

KC, totally agree with you. As a Moderator there has been little to do, as you've stated, other than move threads around to put them in their correct place.
Links to other sites are checked, as well, to make sure they are legitimate and keep in line with the original thread.
Always happy to help you out when needed, as per your latest statement.
Check out Jim Bryce's Pennant Number list. If you don't have it, I can send you a copy. It's the best around at the moment. I use it frequently to sort out what ship is what !!
Keep up the good work, on what is a first class web site !!!

[herakles]

I've waited a few days before responding to the posts in my thread in order to give members time. The question was the feelings and fate about Shore Leave.

Very few members have expressed an opinion or offered suggestions. The thread soon went off-topic. As such I can't say what the membership thinks about this except to say that the few who offered opinions seem to think that it's a good thing.

There is clearly some opposition however. Some members feel that anything not directly related to naval matters has no place here.

So as the matter is still unresolved, my conclusion is to maintain the status quo. I am saddened though that whilst the post count for the thread is high, the number of members who contributed to it is low. They can't all be slurpers and guests. Also, I would prefer Shore Leave to appear in the "Today's Posts".

Someone pointed out that the non naval (i.e. miltary) forums are basically ignored. I posted in one of them recently and found that I was the first to use this forum. That's not right.

Let me now address some of the off-topic matters.

I was sorry when the Everything Else Forum lost the post count feature. I believe this happened after the forum lost its true meaning and became another version of Shore Leave. I hope the post count aspect is returned. The trouble is in the name. If you call something "Everything Else", you will get just that. I suggest the name of the forum be modified to better reflect its naval and military use.

The database. What a truly exciting prospect this is. Kc's work load must be horrendous! It's going to change the Forum forever, making it much more appealing to a wider audience than it is now. And will certainly attract members from many countries. I expect membership numbers will increase dramatically. Perhaps one day we will have forums in other languages. That's some way down the line of course.

I wish the making of the database every success and look forward to its completion.

We are all agreed on one thing I hope: that we want this forum to thrive and to enjoy ourselves here as well as learn many things. And live in harmony together.

[astraltrader]

Your suggestion about restoring the post count has already been raised and agreed to by Kc if you had read the previous posts.

[herakles]

Your suggestion about restoring the post count has already been raised and agreed to by Kc if you had read the previous posts.

Quote from my reply seeing as you obviously missed it: Let me now address some of the off-topic matters.

[astraltrader]

Yes what ever!

[astraltrader]

Kc - Having now re-read your posts in this thread I think your comment

"What I / we have noticed recently is a number of off-site links in threads where they are in our view unnecessary. What I would urge users to note and mods to look out for is off-site links which do not necessarily relate to the thread. I expect to (have to) be clamping down on these in the future - we do not exist to advertise others. Having said that, legitimate off-site links are perfectly acceptable of course. What I'm getting at is where one ship is mentioned in a thread and a reply is given saying : why not look at xandy.com as they have a great page."

is well worth repeating as IMO it does occur too often.

[tonclass]

Terry, I've wanting to ask for ages !! What is 'IMO' ?

Apologies for being a bit thick ;-)

[herakles]

Terry, I've wanting to ask for ages !! What is 'IMO' ?

Apologies for being a bit thick ;-)

IMO = In My Opinion

[Commodore Armiger]

I cannot quite see what the problem is about links to other sites. If the forum does not have the info and somewhere else does. Wikipedia for example has many extremely valuable ship histories with full info about origin, vital statistics, major actions and disposal.

(IMO = in my opinion? SWNSST?)

[herakles]

The main problem with some links is that one is led to a commercial site. As this is a commercial forum, it is felt that these links shouldn't be used.

Links like Wiki, War Graves etc. are fine.

IHTH

[astraltrader]

In a nutshell there can easily arise a clash of interest...

[BECA@CLEAR.NET.NZ]

The existence of non-naval threads at the forum is something that has been hovering in the background for some time. It has emerged again and hence I felt it was time to bring it out into the open.

The Shore Leave forum is here to discuss non-naval matters. As is Everything Else, ever since posting there doesn't earn you any points.

It arose over the issue of the various "Mystery" threads. They have now been merged into one. One member said that they have no role here as the forum should exist solely for naval matters. Another member disagreed. I posted a couple of replies to that and I place them here again for you to read them. There are other non-naval threads too.

"There are some threads that have little or nothing to do with naval matters. And they have been popular judging by the number of members posting in them."

"Let me raise another matter. There are loads of forums on the net and quite a few dealing with the matters we deal with here. It's a competitive world. If we are to attract more members - and there's no doubt we need them - this forum has to be seen to be attractive to potential members. Otherwise this forum will descend into a private members club. Perhaps that's what the existing membership wants. I really don't know.

Personally I don't see the harm in having a small amount of relief. I really would like other members to give their opinions on this. I think we are at a stage of our development where this issue has to be addressed.

I have the feeling that new members will feel confident enough to start posting in threads that are not threatening to them. The expertise here is quite daunting! :)

I'm happy to go with the flow. If only I knew what the flow is!!"

So please give your opinions so we can discuss the matter sensibly and find out just what members want.

Although I am pretty new to this site I must admit that I think that "Shore Leave' is a terrific idea and I have enjoyed reading it and using it. I am ex R.N. myself but am no naval purist and so find "Shore Leave" a non threatening little site where one can make contact without feeling too embarrassed if ones ignorance on a particular subject rears it's head. The site is fun, does'nt appear to take itself too seriously and deserves success.
That is my humble opinion anyway, and you can't get much more humble than that!

[Wombat]

From my point of view, I would fully support the "Shore Leave" section.

When James joined the forum and started talking about various Naval topics that were being discussed, I decided to take a look at the forum myself, even though I know very little about Naval matters. :(

The first thing that caught my eye was Shore Leave. I enjoyed it so much I kept going back. Eventually I couldn't resist adding the odd comment. Since then I have found myself reading through the more serious side of the forum, and have learned a lot.


Thanks to Shore Leave we now BOTH enjoy visiting the forum and participating where we can. :)

Those that don't think this section has a place on this forum, don't have to go there. :p

MRS Wombat,
(IRIS).

[herakles]

I'd forgotten about this thread! It's been here some time.

Members might not know that posts in Shore Leave do not increase their post count.

[Wombat]

Seeing as Iris has added her contribution, I will add mine.

One of the drawbacks to these forums is the anonymity of the members. When you talk to a person face to face you can assess their character and what sort of person they are. I find Shore leave puts this element back into the membership, and gives you a chance to get to know the person behind the name. I enjoy sharing the humor and quick wit of the members, as well as their knowledge and expertise in the serious topics.

Shore leave is a good source of light entertainment. It also helps to put you at ease when not very confident about posting; it’s a more relaxed setting. Then you don't feel such a Turkey when you make a blunder else where on the forum, which I have done a couple of times.

Forums can be very intimidating places if you are a novice in the subject matter. It can be off putting to be constantly bombarded with high standards, or embarrassing to ask a question you think you should already know the answer to.

I like shore leave; it should be left as is.

Wombat,
(James)
PS. A few more Hospital Ship topics wouldn't go a miss.

[herakles]

The things you mention are the main reason why Shore Leave was created.

I would most certainly hope you wouldn't feel a turkey making mistakes at our forum!

Trying to assess the real nature of forum members is a very dangerous activity. You will almost certainly always be wrong. Certainly one gets an indication of an aspect of a member though.

Are you related to the Muddle Headed Wombat perchance?

[astraltrader]

From my point of view, I would fully support the "Shore Leave" section.

When James joined the forum and started talking about various Naval topics that were being discussed, I decided to take a look at the forum myself, even though I know very little about Naval matters. :(

The first thing that caught my eye was Shore Leave. I enjoyed it so much I kept going back. Eventually I couldn't resist adding the odd comment. Since then I have found myself reading through the more serious side of the forum, and have learned a lot.


Thanks to Shore Leave we now BOTH enjoy visiting the forum and participating where we can. :)

Those that don't think this section has a place on this forum, don't have to go there. :p

MRS Wombat,
(IRIS).


Iris - Although there was a tiny minority who did not seem enthusiastic about the creation of "shore leave", those voices have since then totally disappeared.

It has now become a well used and popular mainstay within the forum.

Long may it remain so!

[Wombat]

Are you related to the Muddle Headed Wombat perchance?

Herk,
I hope you know you’re talking about the woman I love, (My wife).

Wombat,
(James).

[Linton]

It is a useful forum,and should be retained.

[herakles]

Herk,
I hope you know you’re talking about the woman I love, (My wife).

Wombat,
(James).

You may not know to what I am referring. It was a famous character from radio days.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Muddle-Headed_Wombat

[Wombat]

You may not know to what I am referring. It was a famous character from radio days.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Muddle-Headed_Wombat

Actually I was only pulling your leg Herk. But "Yes" I do know about the muddle Headed Wombat, and from the description in your link I'm afraid thats my wife Iris to a tee. And to be honest I suppose I would make a good "Tabby". :D

Wombat,
(James).

[herakles]

Fair enough James. I was erring on the side of caution!

[Maritime Michael Ian]

I too agree with what has been said on this subject.... my simple mind equates "Shore Leave" with not necessarily talking shop but there being nothing to stop anyone from talking shop if so desired.

It';s great to get immersed in Shore Leave on a regular basis.

Ian:)

[mik43]

Agree with all the comments in support of 'Shore Leave' in its current form. It should be kept as it is and as others have commented, you don't have to go there if you don't want to. And, it is surprising what you can learn!!
Mik

[kc]

There are no plans to change the Shore Leave section. This was an old thread resurrected recently if you check the dates towards the beginning of the thread. I don't post often in Shore Leave myself, but I can see the appeal. I can't see any need arising to change it in the near future.

[designeraccd]

To add my deeflated .02 cents worth: I find this whole site/forum to be VERY INTERESTING. I have a l o n g bookmark list of ship sites, but I find that this one covers so much "water" so well....I'm here more than any of my other favorites.

I thank all those concerned with building and running this site: GR8 work...IMhO! DFO :)

[herakles]

As one who was a member before Shore Leave was created and who helped to have it here, I say these things:

When it was mooted to have it, the idea was simple; to have a forum devoted to things not part of the main thrust of the forum. Kc was very supportative of the idea and approved of its creation.

There was some dissent. Some members wanted nothing more than a forum devoted to ships of the RN.

You should note the minimal use of pictures in Shore Leave. Our forum is divided between those who want the forum to be a vehicle for discussion and those who collect ship pictures.

To each his own I say. I like to think we have a forum that has something for everyone.

I am most aware that other forums I belong to have quite a few different areas used for matters that have no relation to the main thrust of that forum. They are all very well supported.

I would sum up my attitude as saying that all work and no play makes Jack a dull boy.

[Woodbutcher]

The term "Shore Leave".
What comes into your mind when you hear or see the words.
To me, It reminds me of the 'OFF Ship' Events, Visits, Sports, Pubs, inter ship connections, runs ashore (Great & Dismal), bus trips to historical places, socialising with the 'local Lads and Lasses', taking Photos, etc., in fact a lot of things Not to do with the Navy, but without which, would never have happened.
We all looked forward to Shore Leave, to get away from Navy life for a short while, and recharge our batteries, as it were.
Perhaps Shore Leave should / could be a reflection or rememberance of those Memories, whatever they were, that might interest others who didn't/ couldn't experience them for themselves?
Just my 10cents worth, to a Great Forum.
Regards, Dagwood

[herakles]

Perhaps Shore Leave should / could be a reflection or rememberance of those Memories, whatever they were, that might interest others who didn't/ couldn't experience them for themselves?
Regards, Dagwood

Shore Leave can be anything you want! Including your suggestion.

[astraltrader]

As one who was a member before Shore Leave was created and who helped to have it here, I say these things:

When it was mooted to have it, the idea was simple; to have a forum devoted to things not part of the main thrust of the forum. Kc was very supportative of the idea and approved of its creation.

There was some dissent. Some members wanted nothing more than a forum devoted to ships of the RN.

You should note the minimal use of pictures in Shore Leave. Our forum is divided between those who want the forum to be a vehicle for discussion and those who collect ship pictures.

To each his own I say. I like to think we have a forum that has something for everyone.

I am most aware that other forums I belong to have quite a few different areas used for matters that have no relation to the main thrust of that forum. They are all very well supported.

I would sum up my attitude as saying that all work and no play makes Jack a dull boy.

As usual Richard you add up 2 and 2 and end up with 5.

I collect ship photographs it is true but equally I have always gone out of my way to encourage and participate in discussion here as you well know.

It is possible to be interested in both. You should try it.

[Stan.J]

Well I am off for a run ashore later on Lads, If you were with me I might have bought you a pint or two...The only snag is the beer is now £1.70 a pint so only a half for you. What about after a few????Find a couple of nice ladies??then a meal somewhere. A good run ashore I think??? Navy? What Navy, I want to forget watchkeeping for a while whilst I enjoy myself.Cheers, Stan

[astraltrader]

Err - Cheers Stan!!

[Don Boyer]

Well, Gentlemen, I note that the respondents in this discussion all have a lot of gold on their sleeves, from Fleet Admiral on down. Obviously, this topic rankles a bit amongst "management" and the more serious contributors.

As a new member from America --a petty officer speaking from the deck, so to speak -- I can see that the biggest problem is mastering and monitoring the site to ensure it's fulfilling it's purpose. Everything on this site seems to be well handled by the "senior officers" in the arena of naval history first and military history second, as it should be. The broader areas of military or for that matter national history cannot but creep into these discussions. They are also difficult to separate.

I can see a need for the "Everything Else" section although I might have been more specific for the posters in saying it was a "related military history section" not a grab bag. Even so, it will require more monitoring by the forum moderators to ensure it is reasonably "on track" material. Material not suited or part of the intent of this forum section should be ruthlessly dumped. No need to even go into that. Whether or not posting in the Everything Else section is a criteria for advancement in rank is irrelevant to me. Even if I never post a thing in this section, I will still one day be wearing Admiral's stripes -- curl or star, doesn't matter to me! Others may feel the section should be counted, and that's fine with me as well.

As to the "Shore Leave" section, I see no use for it at all AS PART OF THE FORUM. My reasoning is that there are other better options out there. If we want to chit-chat on whatever neat subject comes up not directly related to the forum, then there is already a medium available for that called private email. There are chat rooms galore as well for that stuff. Dumping this unneeded site also avoids having the moderators having to baby-sit a site that could, and has, gotten out of hand, apparently.

This section's viability comes down to a matter of good business practice. Management does NOT need to be trying to break a wild horse at the same time it is trying to moderate the herd in general. It is putting an unneeded and unnecessary strain on the moderators to have to keep an eye on a particular section devoted to unlimited BS rather than naval history, the core of this forum.

If I was on the "Board of Admiralty" here I would vote for retaining the Everything Else section, more clearly defined as still history-related, and get rid of the Shore Leave section as an unnecessary luxury that places undue burdens on senior leadership. Forum members ALREADY HAVE and ideal "section" for that kind of material (private email/chat rooms) that does not require management attention and will not reflect badly on the forum if untoward items appear that might not be removed by the moderators until after the cat was out of the bag anyway.

Shore Leave is just that. Nice and all that, a source of some great sea-stories, but we're back at sea in the combat zone on this forum, and frankly I don't want to hear about your shore leave while I'm on watch. I want you with your eyes on the horizon, looking for the enemy, because he's out there.

[qprdave]

Don

I am not quite sure what/who rattled your chain re this Forum. If you are that unhappy the way this Forum is run, why don't you do something about it like set up your own forum and then you "brutally dump" anything that you like!!

I am English and proud of it and live in the USA. The proper USA and not a few Islands miles from anywhere. In the 10 yrs that I have lived here, I have met many Americans who pick up an idea that a "Foreigner" has invented and just because "I am an American" I will make it better and tell everyone that "We did it". I even get criticised for the way that I speak and write the English Language by people who have Bastardised this great language of mine.

As far as the "Everything Else", Thread. There are at least two in there that we enjoy.
1) WW2 Memories
There are a few here who went through the War, albeit they were kids, but they went through it all the same. The British People suffered greatly during the war through the bombing, Something you Americans find it hard to understand. Think about 9/11 every day for months on end and then you will get a feeling why we want these memories to stay alive. Is this a part that you will "brutally dump"?

2) We have a great Naval artist here and we are pleased and proud that he shows his great pictures to us all for free (something that the Americans would want to charge for) would this be another of your "brutish dumpings"

Perhaps you might wait around and post more than you 49 posts before making such bland statements.

[harry.gibbon]

Don,

Have you run out of something really interesting to read or participate in, across the various Forums... 'whilst your are on watch'?:p

What on earth brought all this outburst to the fore?:confused:

The thread started in May 08 and ran for 29 posts, lay dormant for 7 months and was resurrected in a debate which took 21 posts to conclude (even the originator of the thread had forgotten of its existance);), then lay dormant for another 9 months!!!! hardly earth shattering stuff; but then you launch off with some kind of unwarranted attack on those of us who try to spread our interests and participation across the various forums available, often returning to Shore Leave and harbouring up in the Wardroom to take a breath!

If the Administrator is OK with its existence that'll do for me!!

Little h

[Vegaskip]

I don't see what the fuss is, there are threads on the forum I've never been into, as I simply have no interest in that particular subject, but there are pleanty of others that I do and I visit them often.

Self censorship,- change channels,-or just pretend it is'nt there!

[harry.gibbon]

So Don says:-

As to the "Shore Leave" section, I see no use for it at all AS PART OF THE FORUM. My reasoning is that there are other better options out there. If we want to chit-chat on whatever neat subject comes up not directly related to the forum, then there is already a medium available for that called private email. There are chat rooms galore as well for that stuff. Dumping this unneeded site also avoids having the moderators having to baby-sit a site that could, and has, gotten out of hand, apparently

... and then posts contributions in the Cartoons thread... wait for it ... on the Shore Leave forum!!!!!:p:confused::rolleyes::eek::):):D:D case closed me thinks!!

Little h

[Don Boyer]

Whoa Amigos!!! I just came back to this post and was aghast at the posts following mine! Sheesh! Hung from the Yardarm, no less!!

Good grief fellows, me being American and some of you being British had nothing to do with that post! You will find no more staunch defender and admirer of the RN than me -- read my other posts!! The RN and it's history is part of the reason I got interested in naval history to start with, and PARTICULARLY a reason I joined this forum -- so I could learn more. It's difficult to find good British historical source documents here. You guys point them out all the time. Where in that post did I insult the RN, or my British co-members???

Give me a break here, I am new to the forum and ran across this post because I am going through them all. If all is resolved, and everybody is happy, good. I had no idea it was resolved...if so, I thought this thread would be closed. It just seemed to me that the "Shore Leave" section didn't focus on the purpose of the Forum and made things harder on the moderators who do a great job of keeping this Forum a truly great one. Better than others I've seen by far. The "Everything Else" thread was not a part of any complaint of mine. I thinks it's great for those things that don't quite fit on the deck of a ship. I think some are reading things into my statements that weren't there.

There is not one word in my post demeaning the English, England or the RN. All I was thinking that if members want to chat on NON FORUM subjects, why do it on the Forum, even in a special section?? Creates more work for those who support and moderate this site for little return. That certainly cannot be construed as a slap at any nationality. Nor is it a slap at any member.

QPRDAVE: "Proper USA?" Hawaii is the 50th State of the United States. It is home to Pearl Harbor, which holds more war history than most. I was born in Alaska, the 49th state and have lived in 12 others, all very proper, following my father, a career Air Force Officer. I served in the combat zone in the US Navy on the flight deck of an aircraft carrier. I served alongside British and Australian comrades and spent shore leaves with them. I still remember "Let's 'ave a look at it, mate!" from my Australian friend, as to the level of beer in all the glasses. Those dudes could drink any of us Americans under the table, and usually did...I vaguely remember them delivering me to my ship in Singapore a couple of times, because otherwise I would never have found her.

49 posts has nothing to do with my knowledge and abilities in military history. Fifty years of study, a 600+ volume library on the subject and over 30 years of service in the federal government serving the military speak louder than 49 posts on a forum. I have co-authored one publication on naval history and am working on another. I served as a public affairs officer at the USS Arizona Memorial, awash in American wartime history. I just published a post in the modeling section re a display of US AND British ships serving together in the Pacific, a fact often overlooked in America, and wrongly so. The whole purpose of my three-year modeling project was to point that fact out at the model and crafts shows here. Besides, King George V is a very handsome piece of shipbuilder's art!

My statement re dumping referred to the moderators duty to ensure posts are relevant and such, and contain no hanky panky. The Everything Else thread is not the one I was suggesting was irrelevant. The Shore Leave was the subject, because it would be more prone to problem posts.

There is no statement in my post stating that I am unhappy with this Forum. If I was, I wouldn't be here. I'm more than happy with the Forum, I just seemed to have stepped in the dog doo big time with some of you assuming I am anti-British just because I'm an American. I am a well-educated American and not that stupid. I know Britain sacrificed an empire to keep the world free from evil, and I will never be anything but a staunch supporter of my cousins across the waters and their navy -- especially their navy, which AT NO TIME IN ITS HISTORY HAS IT EVER BEEN FOUND NOT FACING THE GUNS WHEN IT MATTERED. Distant relatives of mine fought with Wellington!. (Oops!...looking at the book, distant relatives also fought with Napoleon, too. Sorry about that!)

In closing, if you feel I have insulted Her Majesty's subjects, I offer my humble apologies. I can't for the life of me find any insults in my original post, and certainly none were intended.

Maybe I should have read all the posts more closely. I thought that the subject was still being discussed because it was open and that a final decision on keeping the "shore leave" post was PENDING, not already made. Obviously I screwed the pooch big time there!

Also, as an American, let me make a little statement about America The Beautiful. There is a lot of American culture that makes me want to puke. Rappers, gang-bangers, reality TV, trashy political figures, scum businesses out to rake us all over...it's sickening what we have become in many aspects of late. I make no apologies. Sometimes I am ashamed to admit membership in the club.

Yet, through it all, that shining glory of freedom and democracy (handed to us by our British forebears, albeit there was a little argument there!) is still around if you look for it. It's one of the reasons I live on this little "improper" island in the Pacific. It's one of the last bastions of the America I admire and strive to defend and protect. I plan on my ashes being scattered at sea from here, because this island is my home, and I am never leaving it again.

Again, to my British friends out there, if you thought I was being insulting, I apologize.

Sincerely, and with great respect,

[harry.gibbon]

Don,

Fair enough, good of you sir:) to respond in the manner you have.

I have no problem with any forum member giving it a bit of wallop and then on reading the response - coming back with a clearer understanding of the stance taken by respondents!!!!!!:)

We are not bad lads/lasses in the WNSF and if you keep in touch with the postings in this particular Shore Leave forum you might find material for some more cartoons which I have no doubt our resident man of the canvas will observe and may even commit to his own inimitable cartoon style!!!!:)

No point picking on us ex RN matelots; because against the odds, we were always able to gang up more quickly than any other Navy;) ... we knew if we lost we would get a lift back to somewhere in the crushers taxi:D:D

Live and let live :):)

Little h

[kc]

I see you've dug up an old thread, Don, and responded to it as if it were still a fresh new thread. Opinions and personnel here change quite a lot, and sometimes we find better solutions for things than others. At the moment, the system seems to be working ok, although circumstances could change tomorrow and we'll have to address whatever it is that creeps over the horizon.

I understand what you've said in your (initial) post, and actually agree with it to a certain extent. The one critical difference, for me, in having a shore leave section rather than going elsewhere, is that we can talk to our WNSF buddies about football (soccer) or old cars or whatever, and we know the people we are talking with. If it wasn't for the communtiy on here, we wouldn't have the shore leave section tacked on the side, and the shore leave section drives that community, at least in part.

I hope that in time you might get to see that - it probably takes some time on the forum to understand. (Please don't take that in a demeaning way - it is not intended as such).

As for the American - British rubbish, please ignore that. Yes, some of us are fiercely British, but there is no need to alienate others because of that fact. Thanks for coming back to follow up your first post - as harry said, it's appreciated! :)

[astraltrader]

I think I can say that having got to know Don as well as anybody here through PMs as well as posts, that he most certainly embodies what is the very best of the "special relationship".

[Don Boyer]

Thanks, all of you and particularly you, Terry, for the follow on posts. I just hope qprdave reads my reply, as he seemed particularly irritated.

I can understand the "shore leave" section from your point of view as a place to roll up sleeves, have a few pints and not talk business. KC made that clear. I'm as willing as anyone to take some time ashore, and the pints are on me next time!


Sincerely,

[Rushy]

IMHO Shore leave should be treated as shore leave, when you step ashore for a beer or fifty not all the conversation in the bar is about the navy, it encompasses a great deal of interests from football to baseball to books and movies, plus a few subjects not brought up in polite company. I think the members themselves will self regulate the forum by not replying to subjects that don't interest them and getting involved heartedly if they are interested.

Cheers

Rushy

[tonclass]

Also quite a few posts/rants are made through whisky-stained glasses (You can see this quite often), and what you write at midnight may not quite have been what you intended to say in the cold light of day. A degree of common sense & leeway has to be taken with ALL posts, especially in the Shore Leave thread.
Most posts are harmless but us Moderators do try to keep the Forum on an even keel and weed out the troublemakers.
Don, you have every right to make a comment on this thread, but please just remember. The reply you get get depends on the time of day (especially in the UK) and it may well be because of the 'Funny Juice' kicking in and reasoning going out the window ;):)

[Scurs]

I didn't know things were this serious............I agree with Terry.........had to agree sometime I suppose! :D

[alanbenn]

Well like all matelots on 'shore leave' after a few beers some get into 'spats' I think this was one of those times.

It is always difficult when relatively new members are trying to catch up on posts and lets face it there are plenty to catch up on, they will at some stage respond to something that has long since passed.

Don, like everyone else is entitled to an opinion and has given it, we don't have to agree with it.

Shore leave has it's place and after a few debates is now settling down and produces some interesting articles and at times if I'm honest some real 'crap' but isn't that just like conversations in the clubs and associations everywhere.

Regards
Alan

[siggy63]

Wot, Hey, who turned the lights on? Did I miss something LOL

Danny

[Bee]

For what it's worth, I think that "Shore leave" is great. I would hazard a guess that all the posters in this forum have an interest in things naval...if not, they wouldn't be here. That being the case, most posters have a particular area of interest...and may, in time, contribute material which might never see the light of day, were it not for this forum. One of the best things here is that we don't just admire the biggest and the best. Maybe I'm a bit naive but I was brought up to believe that all men (and women) are born equal and we all have interesting stories. Sadly, many of those "stories" never get told....but they remain an unwritten but vital part of the "whole". Thus I agree with qprDave giving weight to the "first hand experience" stories that we are fortunate enough to be collecting here, as most of these posters are in their late 70s and 80s and once they go...so do their stories. Ships might be great...but it's the people behind them (and the reason for their being built) that make them come to life. (For what is a ship without its crew??)

My parents and their families lived through World War 2, as did most of the older British relatives of many people posting here. (My Mother through the blitzs in England and my late Father, in the RN, with Coastal Forces.) My Dad always had an interest in all things naval, even after he left the navy. He fought alongside African, American and Canadian sailors and had great admiration for them all. Don, he really appreciated the fact that America eventually joined in helping bring WW2 to an end.

My Mother never ceases to be amazed when I mention things from this forum...she says it's as if I know the people here...well in a way, thanks mostly to the Shore leave section and the Everything Else section, I feel I do, in a way. This is more than just a staid old forum of stark facts...it's a community of friends, helping each other keep alive something they share an interest in.

Thankyou to Kc and all the moderators for doing such a great job here, long may it continue as is.

Regards,
Bee

p.s. Don, we've all put our foot in it at various times...you're not alone, but you've made a good recovery....looking forward to reading more of your posts.
p.p.s. Danny, could you turn the lights out please. :)

[Big Al]

First of all let me just say, that I think that the site is brilliant and the layout is excellent. The Shore Leave thread serves a very good purpose, in the fact that new members who are unsure off where to post can use it, until they find their feet or are advised by other members as to where certain posts can go. Well done to the moderators and admin for keeping the site so well maintained.

[dennis a feary]

DON & ALL, a well wrtten `apology & explanation' - if that is what it was.
Your first post (that I read) did give me pause for thought in that I would enquire of the Moderators to consider that `Ranks' should be awarded for intersting/informative Threads as opposed to just `chat' - such as `Hello Jim/Joe /Johnny' !! After all if one anwers a question/provides great info is that not better than `just' a bit of chattering. By this I do not mean that I in anyway denigrate the Shore Leave or any other chatty Forum Thread - after all I have been a contributer to Chat - & much enjoy it. But again it don't INFORM.
Ah well just thought I would put my oar in. Moderating such a proposeal would be time consuming and no doubt tedious - so `leave it as it is' ???
Fair Do's!!

Sadsac

[Guz rating]

DON & ALL, a well wrtten `apology & explanation' - if that is what it was.
Your first post (that I read) did give me pause for thought in that I would enquire of the Moderators to consider that `Ranks' should be awarded for intersting/informative Threads as opposed to just `chat' - such as `Hello Jim/Joe /Johnny' !! After all if one anwers a question/provides great info is that not better than `just' a bit of chattering. By this I do not mean that I in anyway denigrate the Shore Leave or any other chatty Forum Thread - after all I have been a contributer to Chat - & much enjoy it. But again it don't INFORM.
Ah well just thought I would put my oar in. Moderating such a proposeal would be time consuming and no doubt tedious - so `leave it as it is' ???
Fair Do's!!

Sadsac

Dennis entries on shore leave do not apply towards ranking, but is a good medium for easing people into posting on the forum. A lot of people on the forum are collectors of naval memorabilia others are not. I was delighted by the kind generosity of the collectors to share with others. I enjoyed my time in the navy, But the thing I remember most with affection was the ships company not the ship. But we need both to make a navy, and we need shore leave to balance this forum in my opinion.

Alan

[dennis a feary]

GuzAlan, quite agree re the Chat in Forum. There needs to be a space for `Hello Jim's. Did not realise that one does not get `Brownie-points' for input in `Chat Threads'. So question/thought answered.
Much enjoy spmewhere to `moan & groan' in !!

Sadsac

[astraltrader]

It has to be remembered that this thread was started sometime ago to debate the newly started Shore Leave section.

In the year and more since then it has more than proven its worth as a well used and useful part of the forum.

For that reason I have closed this thread as its role and future are assured...