Unidentified Ships (British)

[kc]

Here are a few photos that have not been identified. Some have a few clues, but most we just have no idea!

http://www.battleships-cruisers.co.uk/images/unknownsub2.jpg
British Submarine - Photo taken from HMS Shropshire.

http://www.battleships-cruisers.co.uk/images/unknown4.jpg
No clue on this one.

http://www.battleships-cruisers.co.uk/images/aircraftcarrier.jpg
Or this one.

I know the photos aren't great quality, but hopefully they are good enough for some identification to be made.

[AlZictorini]

I believe the Submarine to be from the Rainbow Class of submarines. Note the distinct to type bathtub forward of the tower for the main gun. Another indication is the characteristic step of the deck towards the stern.

The Cruiser is the hardest to identify and I'm not 100% sure, but she looks like and early Protected Cruiser from the Edgar Class.

The Carrier has a wide cord funnel with a mast forward, this points towards the Illustrious or Implacable classes of carrier. The sloping off of the landing deck at the bow and the stern does however identifies her as being from the Illustrious class during the War years (Implacable & Indefatigable having flush/flat landing decks when built).

[40700]

Reference the unidentified carrier. I have tried to expand the photo but to no avail.

Do you have a copy to send having a much larger file size?

40700

[Stan.J]

The Cruiser? Wonder if it is one of the Orlando Class. Maybe the "Undaunted"?There were various modifications taking place all the time in those days.So really never sure???

[jbryce1437]

Wonder if the cruiser could be one of the Medea class of 1888. Looks like she has two single turrets either side of the quarterdeck. These two pics are of Melpomene and Medusa

[tonclass]

I reckon the carrier is Illustrious and the pic taken in 1946.

I have an almost Identical copy taken perhaps a few minutes after (or before)

Just a shame the original pic is so small to get a proper comparison.

Rik

[Batstiger]

I'm afraid I can't contribute much to this thread but I can enlarge the existing pictures and, although it reduces the quality it might help in some way.
"Nothing ventured, Nothing gained!"

[stontamar]

Regarding the photograph of the Illustrious Class (1st Group) aircraft carrier. The vessel is still fitted with the original long flight deck round down over the stern. This feature is the one positive identification aid in what is otherwise a very difficult photograph.

The rebuilding of the flight deck was a major wartime structural change that increased the usable length of the flight deck considerably and this change is very noticeable. The photograph therefore can definitely be dated prior to this major alteration being completed on this vessel.

HMS ILLUSTROIUS had this modification carried out when she entered refit in the USA in Jun-Oct 1941. I do not know for certain when HMS FORMIDABLE was given the same modification but it was possibly carried out between June and November 1941, during her period in repair in the USA.

HMS VICTORIOUS was slightly different in that she suffered no major action damage, as had ILLUSTRIOUS and FORMIDABLE and therefore her first major refit came in January 1943 when she was take in hand by the US Navy for a refit and modifications to enable her to operate in the Pacific on loan with the US Navy. It is possible that the flight deck arrangements and radar fit were updated during that period.

Unfortunately the quality of the photograph does not help with identification of the radar and weapon fits or camouflage scheme that may or may not have been applied at the time the photograph was taken.

My guess would therefore be that the ship was photographed prior to January 1943. Looking at the background the ship appears to be operating in northern waters and the only one of the three Illustrious Class that operated in that area prior to January 1943 was HMS VICTORIOUS.

To be honest the photograph is so poor that it is almost impossible to provide a definitive identification for this carrier but in the absence of conflicting proof, with a wish to stimulate debate and ready to be shot down, my guess is to stick with HMS VICTORIOUS c1941/2.

Regards

stontamar

[jbryce1437]

Agree it could be Illustrious, or that class, with this radar/foremast configuration of 1940

[Theletterwriter]

I do not know if this has any significance but in the front piece photograph of the book Illustrious by Kenneth Poolman, the ship had the letter "Y" on its deck whereas in the photograph in this thread, it looks like the letter "O".

Douglas

[Theletterwriter]

Further to my post of yesterday, my Dad, who served with HMS Illustrious betwen 1947-1948, has a photograph of the ship with the letter "D" on the deck.

Does anyone know why these letters would change?

Best wishes

Douglas

[steve roberts]

Hi Doug. It's probably because there were so many Carriers who's Name started with I.Would be confusing for some poor old Fly Boy,if one or more of them were in the same area.Embarrasing to land on the wrong ship!.Regards..Steve.

[Theletterwriter]

Hi Steve

I still am not sure why the Illustrious had the letter "Y" on her deck (both at the bow and stern) in the book whereas the letter "D" was shown in the photograph earlier in this thread and in the photograph in my Dad's album. He has some really interesting photographs of the Illustrious and her crew from 1947-1948. I will try and convince him to let the photographs of the crew and ship appear on the forum.

Best wishes

Douglas

[Doc]

On a side note in response to Theletterwriters question. Steve pretty much explained it. The deck letters changed as a ship moved fleet or location. I imagine the assigning of which letter was purely an administrative matter ie what ever letter was next or one which had been vacated by ship being replaced on station.

Illustrious from 1944 as an example:
Q = 1945 (British Pacific Fleet)
L = 1945
D = 1946-1954
Y = 1953-1955

I appreciate the overlap of 'D' and 'Y' and can only explain it by a rapid change of deck letters back and forth. My only thought is that D was used when in service, Y was used when she was in reserve fleet - brought out briefly in 1953 for Coronation review and therefore reverted briefly back to D.

As I say no expert and only guess work so would welcome comments.

Doc

[tjstoneman]

Deck letters also (usually) formed part of the identification markings on the ship's aircraft from the late 1930s onwards, either as part of the squadron code (eg the Skua from ARK ROYAL ("A") shown at http://www.wwiivehicles.com/unitedkingdom/aircraft/dive-bomber/blackburn-skua.asp) or as a single letter on the aircraft's tail (as seen on many of the photos on the Naval Aircraft thread (http://www.worldnavalships.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4068&highlight=aircraft). Shorebased aircraft and helicopters embarked on smaller ships later had two-letter codes.

One oddity was FORMIDABLE, which carried the greek letter phi (Φ - which equates to "f") on her deck and aircraft for a period during the war.

Most codes remained unchanged until the ships joined the British Pacific Fleet, and then some were altered periodically as a security measure. Postwar there were some changes (I think in the mid 1950s) to make the codes fit the initial letters of carriers' names where possible (eg EAGLE went from "J" to "E", ALBION went from "L" to "A" and ARK ROYAL, initially "O", changed to "R"). As has been mentioned, there are/were duplications of initial letters (ARK ROYAL and ALBION, several with "I" etc), so using the first letter of the name didn't always happen. I've not seen any reference to changing letters when a carrier changed station, but that may have been the case on occasion.

Tim

[Theletterwriter]

On a side note in response to Theletterwriters question. Steve pretty much explained it. The deck letters changed as a ship moved fleet or location. I imagine the assigning of which letter was purely an administrative matter ie what ever letter was next or one which had been vacated by ship being replaced on station.

Illustrious from 1944 as an example:
Q = 1945 (British Pacific Fleet)
L = 1945
D = 1946-1954
Y = 1953-1955

I appreciate the overlap of 'D' and 'Y' and can only explain it by a rapid change of deck letters back and forth. My only thought is that D was used when in service, Y was used when she was in reserve fleet - brought out briefly in 1953 for Coronation review and therefore reverted briefly back to D.

As I say no expert and only guess work so would welcome comments.

Doc

Doc

Thanks for the detailed explanation.

Douglas

[peter.robb]

I think the carrier is HMS ILlustrious taken just after the war.If you look closely at the photo Riki posted It show what I think are Hawker Sea Furies and they entered service in the late 1940s.
peter.

[Fishburn]

Hello all --

I have just joined this thread because I have two photographs of a ship which I am trying to identify. I have uploaded the clearest one here which I hope will be good enough to use.

The photo was taken at Gallipoli and, from what I can tell, is a Beagle Class destroyer. The old caption on the back says that this is the "Bulldog" but in the other photo it is called the "Beagle".

The point is that in both photographs the ship has the same identity stripes painted on the funnels, (2 on the forward funnel and then 1, 1), and I was hoping that this might help confirm which ship is actually photographed .

If anyone can make out which Battleship is photographed to the right of the Destroyer I would be even more grateful.

Many thanks,
Matt

[RNfanDan]

Matt,

I hope you won't mind that I've taken the liberty of running your photo through a processing/enhancement program, in order to bring out some of the detail and (hopefully) make it easier for one of the experts here to assist in identifying these vessels.

Dan

:)

[jbryce1437]

This could well be Bulldog as I have pic of Beagle at the Dardanelles with different funnel markings. She is also ferrying troops, as is the ship in your photo.

Jim