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ivorthediver
20-07-2009, 18:36
Why were ships Funnels of the first and second world war craft held in place with Shrouds and rigging devices please :confused:

qprdave
20-07-2009, 18:37
Stop them falling over!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1

ivorthediver
20-07-2009, 18:47
Stop them falling over!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1


Sounds like a feeble bit of Engineering to me and a death trap for "Jack" milling around on deck in a emergency situation

mik43
21-07-2009, 17:04
Ivor

QPR is in fact correct!! Because the funnels of that age were a bit on the tall side(!) if left being only secured to the deck by rivets would have been very unstable in a strong beam wind. Also the flexing of the ship whilst steaming would have caused the funnel to sway, sway to much and away it would go - hence anchoring with a few shrouds. That is the official reason, the unofficial reason is that if a ship lost a funnel over the side the resulting paperwork would have been horrendous!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Mik

oldsalt
21-07-2009, 17:41
Part of the flashing up from cold routine was to slack off the funnel guys to allow for expansion when the funnel heated up , after the funnel was hot then the guys could be adjusted. Funnel covers were fitted to prevent the Stokers falling out in roughers.

ivorthediver
21-07-2009, 17:58
Ivor

QPR is in fact correct!! Because the funnels of that age were a bit on the tall side(!) if left being only secured to the deck by rivets would have been very unstable in a strong beam wind. Also the flexing of the ship whilst steaming would have caused the funnel to sway, sway to much and away it would go - hence anchoring with a few shrouds. That is the official reason, the unofficial reason is that if a ship lost a funnel over the side the resulting paperwork would have been horrendous!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Mik


Hmmmmm still not convinced there must have been a better way of fixing them

ivorthediver
21-07-2009, 18:03
Part of the flashing up from cold routine was to slack off the funnel guys to allow for expansion when the funnel heated up , after the funnel was hot then the guys could be adjusted. Funnel covers were fitted to prevent the Stokers falling out in roughers.


Well oldsalt you are now applying some logic to the argument...... but surly a structure like this was never just riveted to the deck.... what about the ducting fittings contained within the stack?

Vegaskip
21-07-2009, 18:09
Ivor, remember if they made them stronger, then they would probably have had to use heavier guage steel, thus more weight up high just where you dont want it, hence stays and a happy medium!

PS what did you use on MANXMAN?

TrotOneLower
21-07-2009, 18:40
That'll teach me not to read the fred title properly. Thought the topic was a bit odd when I thought it was "Shrouds for Funerals".

ivorthediver
21-07-2009, 19:08
Ivor, remember if they made them stronger, then they would probably have had to use heavier guage steel, thus more weight up high just where you dont want it, hence stays and a happy medium!

PS what did you use on MANXMAN?


I omitted them as I had no suitable scale material to use

ivorthediver
21-07-2009, 19:09
That'll teach me not to read the fred title properly. Thought the topic was a bit odd when I thought it was "Shrouds for Funerals".



yes that would have lead to a dead end me thinks

oldsalt
23-07-2009, 13:09
Well oldsalt you are now applying some logic to the argument...... but surly a structure like this was never just riveted to the deck.... what about the ducting fittings contained within the stack?

Most funnels (in my day) had no internal fittings other than angle iron stiffeners. Waste steam pipes from boiler safety valves were piped outside the funnel, the steam siren also. Within days of joining Vanguard (the big one) I was in the chosen to boiler clean. This started with us climbing up the funnel equiped with long handled stiff bristle brooms, we stood on planks resting on the angle irons & swept the inside surface of the funnel. I can't say how high the funnel rim was above the first armoured plate, I do remember it seemed a hell of a fall if you overbalanced & I don't remember having safety lines. The armoured deck had sloping holes in it to allow passage of funnel gas but hopefully stopping nasty things dropping into the boiler rooms. We were given Vaseline (stop the tittering) to apply to our eyelids in an attempt to keep the soot out of uor eyes.There was no other protection given.:eek::eek::mad:

ivorthediver
23-07-2009, 18:03
Most funnels (in my day) had no internal fittings other than angle iron stiffeners. Waste steam pipes from boiler safety valves were piped outside the funnel, the steam siren also. Within days of joining Vanguard (the big one) I was in the chosen to boiler clean. This started with us climbing up the funnel equiped with long handled stiff bristle brooms, we stood on planks resting on the angle irons & swept the inside surface of the funnel. I can't say how high the funnel rim was above the first armoured plate, I do remember it seemed a hell of a fall if you overbalanced & I don't remember having safety lines. The armoured deck had sloping holes in it to allow passage of funnel gas but hopefully stopping nasty things dropping into the boiler rooms. We were given Vaseline (stop the tittering) to apply to our eyelids in an attempt to keep the soot out of uor eyes.There was no other protection given.:eek::eek::mad:

Thank you Keith , Can you imagine "health and safety" with that now days
they would go ape

Francis Stanley
24-07-2009, 09:43
Most funnels (in my day) had no internal fittings other than angle iron stiffeners. Waste steam pipes from boiler safety valves were piped outside the funnel, the steam siren also. Within days of joining Vanguard (the big one) I was in the chosen to boiler clean. This started with us climbing up the funnel equiped with long handled stiff bristle brooms, we stood on planks resting on the angle irons & swept the inside surface of the funnel. I can't say how high the funnel rim was above the first armoured plate, I do remember it seemed a hell of a fall if you overbalanced & I don't remember having safety lines. The armoured deck had sloping holes in it to allow passage of funnel gas but hopefully stopping nasty things dropping into the boiler rooms. We were given Vaseline (stop the tittering) to apply to our eyelids in an attempt to keep the soot out of uor eyes.There was no other protection given.:eek::eek::mad:

Hmmmm..... Stokers, Vaseline, Nuff said :eek:

"Chief can I have some more vaseline, I've run out, its fer me eyelids honest!" :p

qprdave
24-07-2009, 14:57
Vaseline, Golden Rivet, Stokers with their ovies unbuttoned well below their belly button!

Makes you wonder what actually happens down in those deep dark God forsaken holes!!!!!!!!!!

oldsalt
24-07-2009, 15:07
Some people have dirty minds, go & see a shrink & wash your mouth out, I did'nt even mention the talcum powder.:eek::eek::rolleyes::D:D

qprdave
24-07-2009, 15:24
"Some people have dirty minds, go & see a shrink & wash your mouth out, I did'nt even mention the talcum powder"

My apologies, Sir
Appointment with Shrink made and mouth washed out. ( I won't mention the phoo phoo either)

ivorthediver
24-07-2009, 18:07
OK...lets see if I have got this right .........the funnels were bolted to the deck,
nothing was fitted inside them and stokers were lowered down a rope to walk on a plank and sweep the soot off the inside of the Funnel avoiding the odd bit of pipework which actually vented gaseous waste to the heavens ?

So why were they so B....y big then ?:(

Vegaskip
24-07-2009, 18:46
To make it easy for Santa!

ivorthediver
24-07-2009, 18:57
To make it easy for Santa!


Yes..... Thank you Jim ..any other thoughts on the subject please

alanbenn
24-07-2009, 22:36
So the 'stokers' could fit down them!!:p


Alan

qprdave
24-07-2009, 22:58
A small thin one would be useless for the watch on deck to sit with their backs to the warm funnel and out of the wind

harry.gibbon
24-07-2009, 23:02
A small thin one would be useless for the watch on deck to sit with their backs to the warm funnel and out of the windand listen to the stokers fallen down inside

ivorthediver
25-07-2009, 05:52
A small thin one would be useless for the watch on deck to sit with their backs to the warm funnel and out of the windand listen to the stokers fallen down inside



I hear that Ex Hecks never go to heaven due to there persecution of Stokers:eek:

oldsalt
25-07-2009, 13:16
OK...lets see if I have got this right .........the funnels were bolted to the deck,
nothing was fitted inside them and stokers were lowered down a rope to walk on a plank and sweep the soot off the inside of the Funnel avoiding the odd bit of pipework which actually vented gaseous waste to the heavens ?

So why were they so B....y big then ?:(

Listen carefully, I shall say zis only once. When ships boilers were coal fired the height of the funnel assisted the updraught to take the smoke away. Later ships being oil fired with forced draught fans could have worked with no funnel. Think how uncomfortable it would have been on the upper deck & bridge, so to make life more comfortable for the tender upper deck people the engineers kept the funnel. Incidentally ( see threads about AMC's Ranpura) those ships were built with two funnels to make them look pretty, the after funnel was a dummy which was removed when the ship was converted.:confused::confused::rolleyes:

ivorthediver
25-07-2009, 13:23
Listen carefully, I shall say zis only once. When ships boilers were coal fired the height of the funnel assisted the updraught to take the smoke away. Later ships being oil fired with forced draught fans could have worked with no funnel. Think how uncomfortable it would have been on the upper deck & bridge, so to make life more comfortable for the tender upper deck people the engineers kept the funnel. Incidentally ( see threads about AMC's Ranpura) those ships were built with two funnels to make them look pretty, the after funnel was a dummy which was removed when the ship was converted.:confused::confused::rolleyes:


Good Moaning , im with der dicky ticker, I yer you, I might have guessed it was for their benefit

Francis Stanley
27-07-2009, 08:50
"Break out the vaseline lads! one more stoker going up the pipe." :D

oldsalt
27-07-2009, 15:38
I hear that Ex Hecks never go to heaven due to there persecution of Stokers:eek:

Not only that, they will be attacked by shitehawks relentlessly, all shitehawks are dead Chief Stokers, just look into their eyes.:rolleyes::rolleyes:

ivorthediver
27-07-2009, 18:37
Not only that, they will be attacked by shitehawks relentlessly, all shitehawks are dead Chief Stokers, just look into their eyes.:rolleyes::rolleyes:


YES....................vengeance is mine say eth the lord

Francis Stanley
28-07-2009, 07:52
Originally Posted by oldsalt
Not only that, they will be attacked by shitehawks relentlessly, all shitehawks are dead Chief Stokers, just look into their eyes.

Its not the eyes you have to worry about

chris westwood
05-11-2013, 17:08
here is a pic of a model of HMS Malaya's funnel
I've often wondered what all the bits and bobs were that were attached to and protruded from ships' funnels from Edwardian times to post world war two
pipe and tubes running up the sides and back, pipes sticking up from inside also the rim of thr funnel-the black 'skirt' and its accompanying basket like structure.
Can anyone help?

johnny07
05-11-2013, 18:08
Chris some of the pipes would have been from the boiler safety valves.

ivorthediver
06-11-2013, 06:52
That Basket structure on top was to assist in supporting covers over the funnel [ tarpaulin ] when not fired up I think and the black skirt you refer to was decorative in that it was aline to disguise the soot overspill at the top and looked better than a smudgy soot line .

johnny07
06-11-2013, 08:41
Chris some of the pipes would have been from the boiler safety valves.

I think the galley stove flues were there as well.

Derek Dicker
06-11-2013, 10:12
Bit of info on your galley stove flues, in the old navy they were called Charlie Nobles, dont ask me where it came from, vertical pipe with a T fitting on top.


Derek (bunts)

clevewyn
06-11-2013, 10:24
The story goes that Captain Charles Noble discovered that the galley flue on his ship was made of copper and ordered it polished regularly.

So I guess polishing the Charlie Noble sort of stuck.

chris westwood
06-11-2013, 10:39
Much appreciated folks
And thanks to whoever it was who appended my query to the similar thread: ties in nicely

johnny07
06-11-2013, 11:48
Bit of info on your galley stove flues, in the old navy they were called Charlie Nobles, dont ask me where it came from, vertical pipe with a T fitting on top.


Derek (bunts)

The flue from the stove in the admirals cabin hah the same H shaped thing on it Derek. I didn't know they were called that.

johnny07
06-11-2013, 11:52
The story goes that Captain Charles Noble discovered that the galley flue on his ship was made of copper and ordered it polished regularly.

So I guess polishing the Charlie Noble sort of stuck.


Right, and who had to polish it, a stoker or a cook, furthermore was it ever cool enough to polish safely.

ivorthediver
06-11-2013, 12:33
You see lads ....the tales of ships is never fully told ......except by those who served on them , and always a pleasure to read of the storey of how it came about and who may have been the culprit

When on Cavalier last was saddened to see the base of the funnel plates rusted away and a judicial coat of paint slapped on it , however although looking a bit done I can only imagine what a happy ship she was when you hear of the tales told ........like all ships many an untold tale will pass into oblivion

Grosser Kreuzer
06-11-2013, 12:50
Chris,

The "skirt" may also have prevented rain going down between the inner and outer casings.

GK

Dreadnought
06-11-2013, 14:01
This might be of interest

Extracted from:

USS Oklahoma City CL91 / CLG5 / CG5
CAD Model Smoke Pipes

Phillip R. Hays PhD LT USNR-R

The smoke pipes are actually two large concentric tubes. The inner pipe is the exhaust for the boilers - a baffle divides it into fore and aft sections that service two boilers. The outer, shorter pipe is an air intake for the boilers. A skirt fits over the top of the outer pipe to keep rain and spray out. The frame over the top of the pipes was used to lash canvas covers over the openings when in port to keep out rain and birds. Either the front half, rear half, or both could be covered when the associated boiler was not in use. The handrail around the top is typical for the later Cleveland class ships. Earlier ships had hand rails that were parallel with the main deck.

Forward Smoke Pipe
At the top front of the forward smoke pipe is a platform for the ship's siren and whistle. The original Cleveland class ships had separate steam feed and return pipes for the siren and whistle. The siren and port side steam pipes were removed during the CLG conversion.
A catwalk circles the top to provide access for the crew so they can stretch canvas covers over the opening in port. Along the aft side is a large pipe for steam release - a pressure relief for the boilers.

Aft Smoke Pipe
The after smoke pipe also has the catwalk for access, and a large steam relief pipe on the starboard rear side. The aft edge of the catwalk juts out sharply where a ladder attached in the original WWII configuration. The ladder was removed during CLG conversions but the catwalk was not changed. A new ladder was installed on the forward edge of the smoke pipe.

Along the front edge is the flue from the trash burner. The early Cleveland class ships had the trash burner flue on the port side of the smoke pipe. A few of the original Cleveland class ships had the trash burner flue on the forward smoke pipe. The cover at the top varied from ship to ship. Around the funnel about half way up is a remnant of a searchlight platform from the original WWII configuration.

Oiginal Source:
http://www.okieboat.com/CAD%20smoke%20pipes.html (http://www.okieboat.com/CAD%20smoke%20pipes.html)

Superb website and a must visit for USS Oklahoma fans

johnny07
06-11-2013, 18:04
I think the galley stove flues were there as well.

And the steam driven sirens (hooters)

ivorthediver
06-11-2013, 20:27
Thank you Clive for finding that gem of information :)

TCC
07-11-2013, 11:23
here is a pic of a model of HMS Malaya's funnel
I've often wondered what all the bits and bobs were that were attached to and protruded from ships' funnels from Edwardian times to post world war two
pipe and tubes running up the sides and back, pipes sticking up from inside also the rim of thr funnel-the black 'skirt' and its accompanying basket like structure.
Can anyone help?

The model of Warspites funnel is held in the NMM, the drawing is from the anatomy series.

TCC
07-11-2013, 11:49
Chris,

The "skirt" may also have prevented rain going down between the inner and outer casings.

GK

An old cross-section drawing call them a 'weather sheild'. There was 2 of them on RN funnels, top and bottom:

ivorthediver
07-11-2013, 12:45
Got any more like that please , great cross sections , even if dated

johnny07
07-11-2013, 14:24
Got any more like that please , great cross sections , even if dated

Yes a great drawing certainly not computer generated.