The Battle of the Atlantic.

[Batstiger]

I feel this great man deserves a mention on this excellent forum.
Have you read the book? This man lived for and died for what he believed in, the destruction of the U.Boat.

[astraltrader]

An absolute legend, Bob. Didn`t he die basically of sheer stress just before the end of the war? One can`t read any book about the Atlantic war without reading his name.

[John Brown]

A Great man.


Probably better known than the Whiskey.


John

[stewart mcloughlin]

Watch how you spell WHISKY ya Sassenach. Things like that can start cessation proceedings!!!
Still got an unopened 45 year old Black Label bottle named after him. Open it one day, maybe.
Stewart

[John Brown]

oops! Sorry Stewart!!!

Didn't mean to start another rebellion:o

Regards...John

[Stan.J]

Alan Burn, who served under Captain Walker on the Starling wrote "The Fighting Captain." A real story of a brave man. I would recommend this book.

[herakles]

I'm sure he spelt it whiskey to please our American members. Very thoughtful!

[stewart mcloughlin]

Come on Herk, you'll be telling us next that Nippon turps is as good as a Highland Malt, and as for that stuff from over The Pond, I see they are making diesel out of the ingredients now. Better sticking to breakfast cereal with it. :)
Anyway, back to the B. of the A. I think it's time we had Michael Winner making another 'Cruel Sea' epic collating the stories of bravery and courage from the RN & MN (and other associated countries), including the indifference by Government and some senior military officials who didn't do all they could for their own men, and the indifference by the shipping companies of their seaman's welfare. I don't suppose it was all that brilliant on the u-boat side either.
Stewart

[Batstiger]

I don't want to appear to be a fly in the ointment but I don't see what this has to do with Captain Walker.

Bob.

[kc]

Bob,

I'm always keen to learn about new people / battles / events and this is one that I hadn't heard of as yet, so thanks for enlightening me. As admin of the site I better catch up with as many naval incidents as I can, and I always appreciate posts like this. :)

[herakles]

I don't want to appear to be a fly in the ointment but I don't see what this has to do with Captain Walker.

Bob.

It's got nothing to d with Capt. Walker. It's called thread wandering. That's what forums are all about.

[Batstiger]

You carry on wandering if that's what turns you on Herk I'm sure there will be someone around who will listen to you.
You've got me at it now! I'll wander back to the more interesting comments on the site.

[CYLLA]

Talking about wandering,the other month we were staying over in BIRKENHEAD with my wife's cousin[not seen each other for 54 years] and it turned out a full week.
Both are doing the family tree,the girls that is.
And Brian who is her partner ,took us across the water to liverpool,first bit of sea time for thirty odd years for me.
And we ended up in the LIVERPOOL MARTINE MUSUEM,and going round we came to the part " battle ot the Atlantic " which was most interesting,on the wall was a t.v set showing a shot clip of "JOHNNY" at sea, and his funeral,it was very moving.
i do recommend a visit if you get near by.

I,ll wander off now....

CYLLA

[doug.birch]

History of the ALANTIC,should not forget Captain Donald Macintyre of the Hesperus,was second to Captain Walker for dealing with the menance of U-Boats for he got rid of two of Germany's top aces in one convoy & managed to keep Kretschmers binochulers? & took him prisoner ,the end of U-99.his book U-BOAT KILLER is well worth reading. doug.birch

[astraltrader]

Thanks Doug - I will keep my eye open for the book. It is always a good thing to have a recommendation such as yours.:)

[doug.birch]

Battle of the Atlantic
In the summer of 1940 and through the winter our convoys were suffering severe losses, The escorts,small in numbers & lacking training to work in teams were unable to prevent these losses, but in Germany, they had 3 outstanding U-Boat commanders.
Gunther Prien U47,sank the battleship Royal Oak in Scapa Flow& by March 1941 was credited with sinking 245,000 tons of Allied shipping.
Joachim Schepke U-100 230,000 tons of Allied shipping.
Otto Kretschmer U- 99 282,000 tons of Allied shipping.
Prien was the first to go,U-47 was on the surface when Commander Jim.Rowland on Destroyer Wolverine spotted him,he dived but,2 Depth-charge attacks were successful, meanwhile on the 12Th.March convoy H112 were making their way eastward to danger of U-99 7 U-100 that had left the inward convoy, Schepke reached them first on the 15Th, & sank a Tanker, this was observed by Capt.D.Macintyre on a WW1 destroyer Walker,the leader the newly formed 5Th.escort group the battle had started. One of the group Destroyer Vanac raced away, then signaled, have rammed
& sunk a U-boat,it was U100 and Schepke & crew were all lost. Walker got a contact. A pattern of 6 charges were fired, Vanac signaled U-boat astern of me, after a small exchange of gun fire the U-boat flashed we are sinking, boat lowered to pick up survivers, the Captain swam over, still wearing his brass bound hat, what a capture. Otto Kretschmer leading ace of the U-boat arm, holder of the Knight’s Cross with Oak Leaves the most successful in terms of tonnage sunk. Doug.birch

[doug.birch]

Birth. Life. Death. Of the Scharnhorst.
The Scharnhorst, laid down 15Th.June 1935, launched 3Rd.Oct. 1936, commissioned 7Th. Jan. 1939.
Nov. 1939 she sank the armed merchant cruiser HMS Rawalpindi as she was defending a convoy.
Spring 1940 Scharnhorst & Greisenau covered the invasion of Norway, on the 9Th. of April they engaged the battleship HMS Renown with no result.
June 8Th.1940 she sank HMS Glorious, Destroyers Ardent & Acasta, after leaving the safety of a homebound convoy, Acasta made 7 torpedo attacks on Scharnhorst causing some damage, & the loss of 50 sailors Scharnhorst returned to port for repairs, no survivors from the British ships.
January 22Nd.1941 the 2 ships broke out into the Atlantic shipping lanes, several convoys were attacked but broken off when British ships were sighted,many ships were sunk, they returned to the French port of Brest on the 22ND. March after sinking 22 ships a combined 115,600 tonnage. The operation took 2 months with a journey of 17,800 nautical miles, a record for German ships.
Operation Cerberus ( the Channel Dash ) on the 11Th.February 1942. the 2 ships with the Prinz Eugen with several small craft successfully return to Germany in spite of a gallant attempt by the Swordfish of the FAA, all were lost VALE . Scharnhorst & Gneisenau sustained mine damage.
Repairs kept her out of action until March 1943,when she went to Norway to join Tirpitz to threaten the arctic convoys,training concluded with them bombarding Spitsbergen on 8Th. Sept.
On Christmas day 1943. under the command of Rear Admiral Erich Bey, Scharnhorst & several
Destroyers put to sea to attack Arctic Convoys JW55B & RA55A north of Norway, unfortunately
their orders were decoded by the British,who directed their forces to intercept. The nextday unable to locate the convoy, Bey sent his destroyers to the south, leaving Scharnhorst alone, 2 hours later she met the convoy’s escort cruisers HMS Belfast,Norfolk, & Sheffield. Belfast picked up Scharnhorst at 33,000m on Radar, Sheffield made visual contact, the cruisers opened fire,Norfolk
using Radar fired & scored 2 hits. Bey ordered Scharnhorst to the south but they ran into the convoys covering force with the Duke of York which made contact & fired, with damage to hangar and a turret she was able to out run her pursuers. The Duke of York caught up with her & fired again wrecking A turret,detonated charges in A & B magazines, another round destroyed a boiler room, reducing her speed to 22 knots, leaving her to attacks from the destroyers, Musketeer,
Matchless, Opportune, & Virago led by HMS Jamaica,it was her last 3 torpedoes fired at 3 km range was the final crippling blow. A total of 55 torpedoes and 2,195 shells fired at Scharnhorst.
Scharnhorst sank at 19:45 hours on the 26Th.December 1943 her propellers still turning. Of a total complement of 1,968 men,only36 survivors ( no officers ) were rescued , 30 by HMS Scorpion and 6 by Matchless. Later that evening, Admiral Bruce Fraser on board Duke of York briefed his officers:”.Gentlemen,the battle against the Scharnhorst has ended in a victory for us, I hope that if any of you are ever called upon to lead a ship into action against an opponent many times superior,you will command your ship as gallantly as Scharnhorst was commanded today”. Doug.birch.

[doug.birch]

As a follow up from the battle of the North Cape I have two friends in our Adelaide branch of the the RNA. & the Arctic convoy Veterans club, who took part in this battle, 1 was on the DUKE of YORK & the other on the MUSKETEER
The later was also on Arctic Convoy RA59.doug.birch18488

[nicholas]

hi am new to the website. i am trying to find out info on my grandad, he was on hms sheffield and was on it when they sunk the bismark he was between 19-23yrs old his name is frank caterer. i cant seem to find any info about him at all!!! if any body has any info at all we would be gratefull thank you.

[starshell]

Nice to see Johnnie Walker get a mention on here. There's a fine bronze statue dedicated to his memory in Liverpool too, located quite close to the ferry terminal and Maritime Museum. Amazing how many people walk past it without a second glance.

I have seen the footage of him in action at sea and the funeral and it is indeed a moving piece of film. He died of a stroke believed to have been brought on by stress. You can obtain the footage on DVD via the Imperial War Museum - I think the DVD is called 'Protect the Convoy' and should be available on Amazon.

Mark

[Grom]

Battle of the Atlantic
In the summer of 1940 and through the winter our convoys were suffering severe losses, The escorts,small in numbers & lacking training to work in teams were unable to prevent these losses, but in Germany, they had 3 outstanding U-Boat commanders.
In 1940 it was a tactic of surface attack used by Germans rather than names what brought them most of successes. Such spectacular success like Priens sinking of HMS Royal Oak in Scapa Flow had a little effect overall, apart of propaganda success. Battle of Atlantic have been called longest battle of WW2. Which was actually fought from sinking of Athenia by Fritz Lemp, until Germany have surrended. Boldest years for Germans 1940 - 1942, what they called later as "golden years". In 1942 they used tactics of wolfpacks, but due to technical disadvantage, cooperation of airplanes with ASW groups on Allied side, Germans began to suffer heavy losses with the begining of 1943. Spring 1943 u-boat great Atlantic attack turned into disaster. U-boats were pulled out and Wolfpack tactic was cancelled. Bay of Biscay for German submarines breaking into Atlantic was a most dangerous area. Airplanes, airplanes and airplanes were searching the water. For a moment Germans tried to fight them back by using tactic of group in surface positions and covering fire of their flaks. Wvery plane within range was engaged with fire. But it last not for long. As there were many more airplanes which were attacking u-boats from many directions. In final phase u-boats could not make a way out of bases in occupied France. Great u-bootwaffe was on knees. Names like Prien, Kretschmer, Schoepke were replaced by Topp (died last year) or Luth. Looking back at Battle of Atlantic, difference between strengh of forces were such a big so Germans lost Battle of Atlantic in the very moment when they have started it.

[Chris Howat]

Captain Walker - a hero. I served with his son Robert at the Engineering College. Starling sank or helped sink 14 U Boats.
In the wardroom we had an unofficial ships crest over the fireplace. Yes, we had a fireplace! It depicted a starling pulling a U Boat from the sea with its beak. see the official crest below.
This caused a lot of interest when we hosted a formal cocktail party for local bigwigs in Cuxhaven.

[robin487]

Bob,

I'm always keen to learn about new people / battles / events and this is one that I hadn't heard of as yet, so thanks for enlightening me. As admin of the site I better catch up with as many naval incidents as I can, and I always appreciate posts like this. :)

from robin487

Need some more information, guys. I'm a writer in Memphis, TN and would like to read the book you are referring to and read something about John Walker. I see your posts, but where can I get the basic information?

(New member; first post)

[John Brown]

Robin


Welcome to the Forum.

There is much on the web about Captain 'Johnnie' Walker but here is as good a place to start as any.....

http://www.mikekemble.com/ww2/walker.html


Good luck with your research.



Regards....John

[red devil]

An absolute legend, Bob. Didn`t he die basically of sheer stress just before the end of the war? One can`t read any book about the Atlantic war without reading his name.


July 21st 1944; thrombosis brought on by exhaustion

Capt Walker RN (http://www.mikekemble.com/ww2/walkerindex.html)

My own site !!! Thank you John Brown

[qprdave]

I know, You will all be thinking that "It's that T.A.S. Ape Again"

Captain Walker volunteered to become an A/S Officer c1924. It seems that he was shunned for promotion above Commander, in fact, recommended for retirement. Promotions going mainly to Gunnery Officers.

It seems to me that he was almost laughed at for preaching A/S tactics and the Admiralty ignored him.

He was proved to be right during the Battle of the Atlantic.

My question is, How much quicker could the above battle have been won if they had paid the same, if not more, attention to A/S Tactics than Gunnery during the interwar period?

I am, in no way demeaning Gunnery. It played a very important part in winning the War at sea

[harry.gibbon]

Dave,

I sympathise with your thread and can only say that having been a member of the Londonderry Squadron, training all comers, that, at some time after the 2nd WW a realisation came to their lordships of the value of A/S warfare.

Witness the advancement/introduction of Sonar, Squid, Limbo, Helicopters towed arrays etc. all being fitted into purpose designed Frigates. Not forgetting the tactical trainers ashore. I'm led to believe that on a Type 12, the 4.5 turret could be depressed sufficiently to fire an effective round into the oggin (like a mortar).

Best of luck with what should be a really good thread.

Little h

[qprdave]

Little h

I agree entirely with your assessment post-war

Why couldn't their Lordships at the Admiralty foreseen the very real threat that the submarine posed in the interwar period. After all, they had experienced the dangers during the 1st world war. Look at the damage that the German U-Boat caused, just minelaying! I read somewhere that at the Battle of Jutland the Grand Fleet turned away from, possibly annihilating the German Fleet because of the threat of submarines and submarine laid mines.

[ivorthediver]

I think you have a valid argument here Dave , but alas I do not have a valid defence of their actions..

As you point out they can not claim it was all new to them can they.

When you look at the preparation that our enemies put into development and procurement of submarine's , and crew training .it beggar's the question

What was the ratio of German / GB sub's at the start of the war and our preparedness ..

[qprdave]

I haven't looked of the British yet

At the start of World War I, Germany had twenty-nine U-boats in service; in the first ten weeks, five British cruisers had been lost to them. In September, U-9 sank the obsolete British warships Aboukir, Cressy and Hogue (the "Live Bait Squadron") in a matter of an hour.

With the Aboukir, Cressy and Hogue, they thought that it was mines. One went to pick up survivors of the first, and was torpedoed, the third did exactly the same thing.

[TCC]

If the admiralty had more A/S, the struggle that climaxed in 43 would have done so much earlier and we'd have had that weapons race much earlier... or prolonged it, whatever way you look at it.

Peter Gretton was interviewed for the 'World at War' BBC series and, as you touch upon, he says that all the lessons we learnt in WW1 were there for those with a mind to look for them, sadly few did and 'we had to re-learn them all over again and a lot more merchant seamen died as a result'. It's quite damning really.. and nearly a scandal.

By 43, the Allies had a teamwork approach to A/S work and you had 'aircraft', 'convoy', SIGINT (ULTRA) and the growing prowess of ships, crews and tactics. The while enseble providing a blanket protection over the whole theatre. To my mind, it was one of the success stories of the war with the quashing of inter-service rivalries, scientists being allowed to actuall work aboad ships and talk directly to the men involved and seemingly all working for the common good.

But then, they had to. As Churchill said, 'the Submarine threat was the only thing that kept him awake at night'.. or something like that. ;-) They had to beat them before they could take on Germany on mainland Europe.

p.s it would not surprise me i the least that Walker was over-looked on promotions or nearly retired... one of the saddest aspects was his not living to see victory and the ranks of U-boats tied up in UK waters.

[astraltrader]

We already have an excellent thread about Captain Walker and the Battle of the Atlantic so I have moved this thread there...

[qprdave]

whilst looking through the internet. I have come to the conclusion that the Battle of the Atlantic started in 1941!!!!!!

Many of the websites (American) give almost no acknowledgement that Britain had been fighting it since 1939. In fact, it was Churchill that coined the name "Battle of the Atlantic"

Walker argued that there should be a A/S group, independent of the convoy and their job was to go out and actively hunt U-Boats rather than just protect first and then attack as a defensive measure.

It seems that The Americans are claiming that it was their idea?

[red devil]

The concept of the Hunter/Killer Group was Walkers. They did not exist at all. The Admiralty had all ships escorting convoys and none were used independently.

Walker was Captain D at Dover and was instrumental in organising the Dunkirk evacuation for which he was rewarded. (He actually took part). He knew various staff officers on Whitehall and 'persuaded' one to write to Admiral Sir Percy Noble, c-in-c Western Approaches (recently moved from Plymouth to Liverpool) recommending him for a return to the sea.

Noble agreed and gave Walker HMS Stork, and command of convoy escorts Liverpool - Gibraltar. This was the 36th Escort Group. Ships had same rank commanders but Walker over ranked them on seniority. One one of these convoys, HG76, Walker decided to deploy his ships in accordance with his own ideas, generated via his own experience as CO ASW School in Portland.

He encircled the convoy with an outer ring of ships, whilst the remainder, including Audacity (Escort Carrier) remained in the inner circle. This effectively forced the U boats to have to amke a 'run' from much further out and were consequently detected far more easily.

He lost Audacity and Stanley to U Boats but the whole exercise was such a success that his tactics were congratulated upon by Noble and forwarded to the Admiralty for further disemmination throughout the Royal Navy. Walkers home grown tactics were beginning to prove a point.

Ex Submariner Admiral Sir Max Horton assumed command of HQ Western Approaches and he was a big 'fan' of Walker and his methods. Walker would spend ages in the Admirals office overlooking the Atlantic plot, discussing tactics and deployments. The Admiral dutifully noted everything.

Walker was told to form his own Group along the lines of his hunter/killer tactics. The 2nd Support Group was born consisting of Black Swan class sloops like Starling, Walkers ship, Kite, Woodcock, Wren, Wild Goose and Cygnet. 6 in all. Other ships joined or left as time went by but these were the mainstay, 'Walkers Own'. In 1943 the 2nd Support Group went to war, operating from Gladstone Dock in Liverpool.

Walker was given a patrol area and allowed free reign to do as he deemed necessary. His only task was to hunt and kill U Boats. On occasion he was tasked to provide additional escorts to convoys, usually with U Boats in attendance, and he assumed command on arrival, until departure.

His success is legend. One one patrol he actually found and sank 6 U Boats. Of course we now know that he did have limited help from Enigma, Bletchey Park, but overall it was his own 'sense of smell' that found U Boats. He also accepted the use of HF/DF (Huffduff) as a vauable tool in the hunt.

The fact that Walkers tactics are still employed by the Royal Navy today speaks volumes for the Anti Submarine Maestro. Wepaons may have changed but tactics are sound.

Walker normally shunned new technology. His crews were honed to perfection, 6 ships could operate as one, with a minimum of signals. (One such attack took place using only 8 words)! The only piece of technology he accepted was the british invention 'the hedgehog' which fired mortars forward of the attacking ship. Magpie was equipped with this. His arguement was how could technology overcome his crews, to which Max Horton had no answer and Walker was allowed to carry on. When his crews went to Tobermory for ASW training, on return, they were told to forget it and do it his way. He somehow managed to cntrive that Starling never was available to go to Tobermory!

Walker even devised a fool proof method of using this. Whilst Starling has a U boat fixed on her ASDIC, he would direct Magpie ahead of him, keeping the U boat fixed he would signal when to fire. He also used this method to deadly effect with depth charges.

A measure of his mind was when a newly encountered acoustic torpedo was locked onto Starling. Within a second of the torpedo being reported, yards off her stern, he ordered Depth charge, shallow, FIRE!

The stern of the Starling was lifted out of the water, cracking the quarter deck but the torpedo was destroyed!!

He never lost a man in action. Losing Jack Compton overboard, in heavy seas, was his only casualty. He did lose one ship to U Boats, another acoustic torpedo, when Woodcock had her stern blow off. They got her under tow to Liverpool, but lost it.

[Stan.J]

As an ex Member of H.M.S.Wild Goose. (Though only 1949/51 in the Gulf)
I obviously became aware of Captain Walker and the 2nd Support group. I would recommend "The Fighting Captain" by Alan Burn to anyone who would like to learn more of a brave man.Also "Relentless Pursuit" by Commander D.E.G.Wemyss. Who was skipper of the Wild Goose.

[Macadian]

As an ex Member of H.M.S.Wild Goose. (Though only 1949/51 in the Gulf)
I obviously became aware of Captain Walker and the 2nd Support group. I would recommend "The Fighting Captain" by Alan Burn to anyone who would like to learn more of a brave man.Also "Relentless Pursuit" by Commander D.E.G.Wemyss. Who was skipper of the Wild Goose.

Both excellent examples, particularly 'The Fighting Captain', having read them a number of times now...a great winters evening read!

[emason]

I have a book about Frederick John Walker which I don't believe has been mentioned before. It is called simply "Walker R.N." by Terence Robertson. First published 1956 by Evans Brothers and republished by Pan Books in 1958.

In it, the author states that " His doctors considered he died of cerebral thrombosis. But he in fact died of overstrain, overwork and war weariness; body and mind had been driven beyond all normal limits in the service of his country".

Has it been mentioned that he was awarded four DSO's? Apologies if I missed it.

[qprdave]

How The Times Reported Capt. Walkers "Kills"

[ivorthediver]

Thanks Dave , good research here...

Feel sorry for the Admiral on HMS Diadem with an impediment of a name like his ...Dalrymple-Hamilton...what a cross to bear.

[Gone Asiatic]

I`m a Capt. Walker fan! Glad to have opened this thread. There is space in my house for a Capt Johnny Walker tribute, and "The Fighting Captain" is on my shelf.

The bridge photograph I obtained from the Imperial War Museum.

I`ve also uploaded a pic of the afore mentioned unofficial crest.

[ivorthediver]

Thanks for your input and starting this thread ,

It is also an area of history that I enjoy reading about to

[torpedoes-running]

Here's a photo of the unoffical badge from Starling showing the starling pulling a uboat out of the sea

Freddy











Captain Walker - a hero. I served with his son Robert at the Engineering College. Starling sank or helped sink 14 U Boats.
In the wardroom we had an unofficial ships crest over the fireplace. Yes, we had a fireplace! It depicted a starling pulling a U Boat from the sea with its beak. see the official crest below.
This caused a lot of interest when we hosted a formal cocktail party for local bigwigs in Cuxhaven.

[qprdave]

Taken from The Times Archive

[Jackaroo]

I wonder why they have never made a film of Captain Walker RN?

If they do which actor would play him?

Cheers
Jack :cool:

[Dave Hutson]

It should have been made long ago then John Mills could have been the popular choice.

Dave H

[Jackaroo]

It should have been made long ago then John Mills could have been the popular choice.

Dave H

Yes I think he wouldve been a good choice, thinking of others from that great era of British Actors how about Jack Hawkins, even Ralph Richardson would have made a good fist of it....John Griegson...Richard Todd...

Cheers
Jack :cool:

[Choppy Sea]

Since joining the forum some months ago I have been amazed at the info and especially the photos that come to light. But when the HMS Kite thread appeared I was somewhat surprised that no one seemed really interested in this ship, one of the most famous ships in naval history and yet there is real interest in The battle Of The Atlantic which Kite took part in. Very few people seem to know that when Johnie Walker died plans were already afoot for him to be knighted by the King. His death robbed him of this distinction and he will therefore never go down in history for the real fame that he deserved.Mention his name and peoples thoughts immediately fly to HMS Starling but he also commanded HMS Kite on several occasions, on one of these occasions he hoisted from Kites masthead his famous signal " General Chase " when three large UBoats were sunk in the bay, Starling was under repair at the time. Some of you mention books, I have all of them written about the Second Support group but dont believe all that you read in books. In his first edition of Escort carrier, Kenneth Poolman states that not one single ship was sunk on Convoy JW59 but try telling that to the relatives of the 217 men who died on Kite.In his second edition of Escort carrier he makes amends by devoting a full chapter to the sinking of Kite which is perfectly true, but his account of the sinling of U344 is not. He suggests that a swordfish dropped a pattern of three charges whilst the UBoat was travelling on the surface, two dropped alongside and the other dropped on the decck, rolled forward and wedged in the wire rope which was strung from the bow to the conning tower. When the craft dived she self destructed when reaching the setting of the charge. I have a personal letter ( also on Kites website) from the pilot Gordon Bennett who states that this is untrue. He was returning to his carrier HMS Vindex froom a patrol around the perimiter of the convoy and was descending ready for land-on, when he broke through cloud he was directly behind a UBoat travelling on the surfaced, he put the plane into a steep dive and three men on the conning tower on hearing the roar of the engine made a dive for the hatch. He dropped a pattern of three charges which straddled the craft which was diving. At the set depth of one fathom the charges detonated blowing the UBoat apart, lots of debris and one lone swimmer was spotted on the surface, Gordon suggests that this would have been the gunner who would have been the last down the hatch and actually between hatch's when the charges went off. Admiral Hamilton-Dalrymple gave orders for the swimmer to be taken prisoner and a rubber dinghy was made ready but this blew into the planes rigging and had to be shot away by the machine gun, after a few minutes the swimmer disappeared below the surface, U344 and her crew of 50 had gone to the bottom. On return to the carrier Gordon was hailed a hero for sinking the Uboat that had sunk their longtime escort Kite and collected for him which he passed on to the nine survivors on board Keppel. Five other other survivors died on Keppel only two of these were recognised and all were buried at sea close to where kite went down and the two who were recognised are still"Overdue, Presumed Dead". Over more than fifty years after the sinking the Admiralty dumped their report into the sinking in a box with other odds and sods at the records office and wouild have been incinersted if a "friend of Kite" had not found them and pased them on. The Admiralty have never informed any relative of anything relating to Kite all the info on the Kite website has come from eye witness's and relatives, nothing but the truth. The Kites motto was " The Kite Flys To The Stars" denoting that she will always fly free but Terry I think that it is time to bring her in from the cold into the Battle Of The Atlantic" which she knows such a lot about,

[spruso]

Can anyone explain what a "Foxer" and a "PNM Unit" is and what they were used for in Antisubmarine warfare?
Thanks
Cheers
Bruce

[astraltrader]

Hi Bruce I could be wrong but I seem to remember that a PNM unit is to do with Platform Noise Monitoring analysis for noise reduction.

Bearing in mind that the reduction of the radiated noise signature of a submarine platform is a key element to the tactical employment of an anti-sub warship.

A Foxer was British towed noisemaker gear for decoying German acoustic torpedoes, consisting of two parallel bar noisemakers and diverters.

Near the end of the war UNI-FOXER, a single noisemaker, was employed.

I think the term was derived from a USN single towed noisemaker of parallel bar type which was known as FXR...

[spruso]

Hi Bruce I could be wrong but I seem to remember that a PNM unit is to do with Platform Noise Monitoring analysis for noise reduction.

Bearing in mind that the reduction of the radiated noise signature of a submarine platform is a key element to the tactical employment of an anti-sub warship.

A Foxer was British towed noisemaker gear for decoying German acoustic torpedoes, consisting of two parallel bar noisemakers and diverters.

Near the end of the war UNI-FOXER, a single noisemaker, was employed.

I think the term was derived from a USN single towed noisemaker of parallel bar type which was known as FXR...

Thanks Terry

I thought it might be something to do with noise decoys but have never heared of them before.

Cheers
Bruce

[red devil]

I gave up after reading a few threads because some are right and others misleadingly wrong.

The Battle of the Atlantic has been extensively researched by me, and also extensive research done on Capt Walker RN. In fact I have been wrting a book on him for several months now, but do not get much time.

The video on the wall of the Battle of the Atlantic section of the Liverpool Maritime Museum is NOT Walker at all, but a film shot from the bridge of a destroyer. In fact, I believe the notation actually says so.

http://www.mikekemble.com/ww2/atlantic.html

The Battle of the Atlantic was the longest recorded battle in history, lasting from September 3rd 1939 to when the last ship was attacked 2 days after the Surrender on 1945.

http://www.mikekemble.com/ww2/walkerindex.html

Captain Walker RN was a major figure in the planning of the Dunkirk Evacuation when he was stationed at Dover. After that he was allowed back to sea, after much badgering, to Captain HMS Stork and lead a convoy escort group, the 36th, on Gib-UK-Gib convoys. HG76 was the convoy where his anti submarine warfare training came to the fore. His tactics and talent became recognised and, eventually, were accepted by the Admiralty as RN law on sub hunting. Still in use today.

He later joined Admiral Sir Max Horton when he was C in C HQ Western Approaches underneath Derby House in Liverpool, still there today

http://www.mikekemble.com/ww2/western.html

Here he took command of HMS Starling, and the 2nd Support Group. NOT the second escort group as many historians wrongly stated. His mission was to roam the seas, notably the Bay of Biscay, independent of all convoy duties, to form the worlds first hunter killer group. This is a concept that the Americans wrongly tried to claim as 'theirs'. His success is noted by one and all as the main reason that we won the Battle of the Atlantic. Admiral Sir Max Horton himself stated this at Walkers funeral in Liverpool in July 1944.

On one patrol he despatched no less that 6 U boats to the deep. At the time of D Day, he was in charge of the outer ring of defences around the beaches to keep the U boat away, a job he performed admirably, using the same tactics he used in Biscay. In July 1944 he became ill and was taken to hospital in Liverpool. His Group sailed without him under a new commander who was little short of useless and Cmdr DEG Wemyss, Captain of Wild goose took over. He died of exhaustion and thrombosis and was buried at sea on HMS Hesperus, destroyer. His honour guard was made up of allied sailors, mainly Canadian, who were in port at the time.

A statue was placed on the Pier Head, nearby the MN Memorial, to commemorate the man, the legend, the leader, by his Old Boys Association (who disbanded in 2004).

That is a brief synopsis of the man. He never lost a single man in combat and only one ship was lost, Woodcock, hit by an acoustic torpedo and sank whilst under tow to Liverpool. (No casualties). HMS Kite, another of his, and a command of his on occasion, was lost on Arctic duty on 21st Aug 1944, having been torpedoed by U344, whilst under temp comd as her Capt, a Walker trainee, was in hospital himself.


http://www.mikekemble.com/ww2/kite.html

The other ships all survived the war ............................

[Choppy Sea]

Well spoken Red Devil.

[astraltrader]

Hi many thanks for your post.

However if you feel some of the threads/posts here are "misleadingly wrong" perhaps you could kindly let us know which ones you consider are seriously so??

[red devil]

I have a book about Frederick John Walker which I don't believe has been mentioned before. It is called simply "Walker R.N." by Terence Robertson. First published 1956 by Evans Brothers and republished by Pan Books in 1958.

In it, the author states that " His doctors considered he died of cerebral thrombosis. But he in fact died of overstrain, overwork and war weariness; body and mind had been driven beyond all normal limits in the service of his country".

Has it been mentioned that he was awarded four DSO's? Apologies if I missed it.

I have a first edition of this. It has been put of print for a very very long time. I have discovered that Terence Robertson used a bit of journalistic licnce on one or two bits but offhand cannot recall where. I also have the other two books mentioned.

If anyone is looking for Walker RN try abebooks.co.uk where I find rare and out of print books quite easily. Got the Golden Horseshoe (Otto Kreschmer) too.

[red devil]

Hi many thanks for your post.

However if you feel some of the threads/posts here are "misleadingly wrong" perhaps you could kindly let us know which ones you consider are seriously so??
Immediately coming to mind was the 'this is a video of Walker ship in the museum' - its not. And its not even in the section on Capt Walker.

I will have to go back and run through again.

[Jackaroo]

red devil

I wonder if the copyright has been sorted out on your website for the links to Walker R.N. by Terence Robertson.

Cheers
Jack :cool:

[red devil]

I spoke to the apparent holders of the copyright, Evans Bros, they deemed it unnecessary to reply. The book is still online but not linked

Here is an image I took of that video (in the background) of the destroyer allegedly hunting a U Boat.

[red devil]

That is a brief synopsis of the man. He never lost a single man in combat and only one ship was lost, Woodcock, hit by an acoustic torpedo and sank whilst under tow to Liverpool. (No casualties). HMS Kite, another of his, and a command of his on occasion, was lost on Arctic duty on 21st Aug 1944, having been torpedoed by U344, whilst under temp comd as her Capt, a Walker trainee, was in hospital himself.

Apologies, this should read Woodpecker.

The sad thing about Walkers untimely death was the fact that he was about to lose his command anyway, and be promoted to Admiral and given a Carrier Task Force to take to the Pacific.

[Choppy Sea]

A few more piccys that might be appreciated by the forum.

[Choppy Sea]

Pluto one of the greatest achievements of the war.

[steve roberts]

I had a most remarkable ming last night at aclub for the disabled that I help out at.I had seen this gent several times before but never really had a long disscusion with him.He told me he was exRN medical Branch the same as me!He spent most of WW2 on the Rescue Ship Zamalek as a Petty Officer Sick Berth Attendant. His story was amazing,I did not realise that these ships were fairly heavily armed in AA weapons and a couple of 4inch guns!Because of this they were not covered like Hospital Ships by thr Geneva Convention and were fair game for aircraft and U-Boats.Several times they were ordered by Escort Commanders not to stop for survivors,especially during heavy U-Boat attacks,these orders were seldom obeyed and during her service Zamalek rescued over 665 survivors.His worst convoy was PQ17.Before the convoy was ordered to scatter any survivors not in boats were dead before they reached them.He is still discusted at the order to scatter because Rescue ships flew The Blue Ensign and had to follow the convoy escorts in running in the oposite direction to the Merchant ships. Steve.

[red devil]

I had a most remarkable ming last night at aclub for the disabled that I help out at.I had seen this gent several times before but never really had a long disscusion with him.He told me he was exRN medical Branch the same as me!He spent most of WW2 on the Rescue Ship Zamalek as a Petty Officer Sick Berth Attendant. His story was amazing,I did not realise that these ships were fairly heavily armed in AA weapons and a couple of 4inch guns!Because of this they were not covered like Hospital Ships by thr Geneva Convention and were fair game for aircraft and U-Boats.Several times they were ordered by Escort Commanders not to stop for survivors,especially during heavy U-Boat attacks,these orders were seldom obeyed and during her service Zamalek rescued over 665 survivors.His worst convoy was PQ17.Before the convoy was ordered to scatter any survivors not in boats were dead before they reached them.He is still discusted at the order to scatter because Rescue ships flew The Blue Ensign and had to follow the convoy escorts in running in the oposite direction to the Merchant ships. Steve.

PQ17 was not The Battle of the Atlantic but a far harder battle - that for the Arctic. PQ17 (http://www.mikekemble.com/ww2/convoypq17.html)

[Ednamay]

Pluto one of the greatest achievements of the war.

You do realise that a major station for PLUTO was at Shanklin Chine, down the road from here (Sandown) in the Isle of Wight? I did not live here during the war so missed all that excitement. I believe they have dismantled everything here - very sad - unfortunately, the cliff is crumbling, but it is still possible to see the Chine where the pipeline ran.

Edna

[emason]

I have a reproduction of the 1947 Michelin map of Normandy showing all the D-Day beaches and the progress of the battle for Normandy. On it the route of the pipeline is shown as per attached image.

After coming ashore near Cherbourg, it divided into two. One line going South and then South-East, the other going South-East then East roughly following the coast line. Eventually extending as far as the Rhine.

64907


For EdnaMay:-

In 1994 the Midland Bank sponsored a black-and-white film which contained a remarkable amount of historical archive film showing the entire history and construction of the Pluto Project, the HAIS pipe and the Conundrum reels.

The film can be seen in a small heritage museum at Shanklin Chine in the Isle of Wight, one of the Pluto terminals, where there are also a lot of other memorabilia, books and photographs. One of the original pumps used on the Isle of Wight is preserved in the Bembridge Heritage Centre. Brenzett Museum, Romney Marsh, houses a small permanent display related to Pluto at Dungeness.

[red devil]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ylljk8ptWXc

I rather think we are drifting wildly off topic here, would it not be best in its own thread?

[JarrowDave]

Thank God that the Merchant Navy won the Battle of the Atlantic.


JD

[red devil]

In view of the fact that the alleged copyright owners have persistently refused to rpely to even one of my emails about the ownership of Captain Walker RN (out of print) I am reopening my links to the book online


http://www.mikekemble.com/ww2/walkerindex.html

[ollie]

My Dad served on the USS Earle a Destroyer in WW2. He was immersed in the Battle of the Atlantic for several years. Here is his written account of a fight with U-boats while on convoy duty to Casablanca.

Please read it and enjoy it. Its short but a great read.

USS EARLE DD 635
William O. Doherty’s Diary 1943

1/3/43 German radio reported attack on Casablanca the night after we left the area. The supply convoy of 35 ships was probably packed like sardines in the harbor. No dope on damage. Could have been murderous. Apparently we picked the right time to get out of there. Excitement galore today.
We were patrolling station in the "coffin corner" astern of the convoy. Shortly after I went off watch at 2000 we picked up an SG radar contact. Didn't arouse much interest at first, everyone thinking of a dummy run or a ghost. Contact persisted, however. I had got to bed pretty tired and was very nearly asleep when:"all hands to general quarters! Show no lights! Followed by the general alarm. Whipped on shoes but no socks. Grabbed sweater, watch cap and life jacket and ran topside. Worrill still in his skivies when I left. Of course my telephone lines would get fouled in a pinch, but got machine gun batteries reported in in fairly good time. Hagan, my talker was on the JA circuit and could overhear a lot of what was going on on the bridge below. FD radar picked up the contact, tracked it and got solution: target angle 180 degrees, speed 12 knots.

Captain conned ship so that contact was kept continuously on our starboard bow 030-009-063. Tenseness and excitement mounting. Then the order,"all machine guns load", which I repeated to the guns. Rather surprised at my own coolness and steadiness of voice. Last target angle we had was 165 degrees last range 1400. Skipper yelled, "illuminate". Then began comedy of errors. A signalman on the bridge opened up blindly with an uncontrolled signal searchlight. It was meant to be a standby 24" in case of failure of the 36" fire control searchlight. Perhaps 10 seconds later, it seemed like half an hour, the 36" search light illuminated and there it was, plain as day. Conning tower colored gray and camouflaged. Bridge searchlight must have tipped him off because he was already submerging. I was leaning over the rail when skipper yelled "open fire". I immediately gave the order: Guns five, seven and nine, open fire! Shaw the gunner on gun five opened up right on the target. Tracer stream didn't waver at all. Fired 60 rounds Rogers at gun seven fired 23 rounds, Butler at gun nine couldn't fire immediately as the gun was in the stops, but as we swung around, gun could bear and he fired 14 rounds of 40MM with several hits. Meanwhile all 4 five inch guns were blasting away although target was inside the range of the computer. Ten five-inch shells flung at conning tower. Some say two positive hits. Others say only one. Clatter was terrific. Brilliant, blinding flashes of different colors. Smoke drifting through search light beam. Water about the sub was so splashed up that the whole picture was confused and obscured.

Not even sure that the five inch projectiles were exploding. Cease firing given. Shortly after he disappeared and immediately depth charges started. When I saw the flash and heard the report of the K gun impulse charge, I thought sure the 40's were firing after the word to cease had been given and remember thinking the skipper would give me hell.

Dropped one 600 LB charge and 5 300 pounders. Starboard K gun pretty close. Others definite misses. Noise of the whole thing was terrific. Shallow settings on depth charges jarred whole ship. Thought the 600 pounder had blown off our own fantail. Rehash of the whole thing was possibly sunk certainly hit several times, maybe severely damaged. Didn't open up with 5 inch battery soon enough as the computer minimum is 1500 yards and range we fixed at was 1200. Torpedo would have been the thing for him but captain was afraid of hitting the convoy. Ramming would have finished him sure as we were already inside range. Total time for whole engagement was 45 seconds. Higgins confusing everything for 5" guns, yelling for repeats. Hoist jammed in his mount and he fired only 1 round. Couldn't locate Chief Gunner's Mate to fix it. "Where the hell was Proulx? All guns report if the Chief Gunner's mate is at your station send him to mount #1 if you see him." Typical comments: The captain, "I wouldn't mind seeing some wreckage but if we saw any floating bodies that damn doctor would probable want to pick them and stick them in the ice box. Willis:"The captain did a beautiful job of conning." Thomas: "I never saw such a lousy job of conning, Did he think he could sink it with machine guns?" The XO: I think he knew we were there before we illuminated but there is no doubt he was still surprised. Probably thought it was some damn trawler or corvette. Must have thought he tangled with a mess of wild cats when we opened up." Gawd, felt fine during the attack, except that you could have stirred my knees with a teaspoon.

1/4/43 this is too much! Another one tonight. GQ at 2345. In bed only three hours. Another contact on SG radar verified by FD. Tracked and solved before GQ. First appeared at 11,000 yards. We were inside screen, two destroyers being outboard of us on the port side of the convoy. Sub must have submerged to bet by Mervino (Squadron Commander). We approached to 3200 yards keeping him on our port bow. I didn't get the dope from the bridge and was standing on starboard side of flying bridge with my view screened by the vase of the director. When we illuminated, I saw the beam of light but not the business end of it. As I rushed over, open fire came from the bridge. I repeated to guns 6,8 & 10. Immediately a stream of tracers blocked my view so that I never did see him. Ten seconds later we discharged a torpedo. The 5 inch guns had been pounding away all the while. Ammunition expended 360 rounds of 20MM, 6 rounds of 40MM, 34 five-inch shells, one torpedo and 1 K gun depth charge. Result positive destruction. We illuminated a second time to see results. Debris was sighted by some Fuel oil odor came to us. Best evidence was complete disappearance of radar pips in a manner that indicated disintegration rather than submerging. Perfect solution on main battery. Couldn't miss, range a little to long for accurate machine gun firing. Gun #10 nearly incapacitated by blast from Mount #3 which tore off the gyro-repeater in secondary conn, smashed port life raft, burned one man on side of head, knocked everyone off his feet, knocked off helmets and telephones. In general caused so much confusion that the gun crew got off only 3 rounds at the sub. The flashes were so blinding that the loaders couldn't see their ammunition or the guns.

Our policy is to throw everything at him whether it will reach or not. Everyone sore at the machine guns for obscuring the view. I think they won't be used in the future except at very short ranges. No sleep for the rest of the night as I had to go on watch at 0330.

[Eggs-11]

Ollie, a good read thanks for putting it on the forum.

[John Odom]

Yes, a good read!

[Jackaroo]

Ollie, many thanks for posting this first hand account on here. Great read.

[ollie]

My father's view of the war was that of a citizen -sailor. He always told everything like it was and was not afraid to admit he was a civilian first and therefore viewed the carnage of war and mayhem with a fresh look. When I first read the entry (after he passed away) I remember thinking,"good grief, its a miracle we won the war." Then I realized the other side was also staffed by citizen sailors who were learning the art of war just as he was. He was only an Ensign at the time. He had had the benefit of going to sea in the merchant marine earlier, but chasing submarines was altogether different.

Ollie

[Destroyerman]

Ollie,

good to read it from the 'sharp end', warts and all.

Fascinating stuff, the author's allusions to specifics make the tale even more compelling.;)

[jainso31]

Being very much interested in the Battle of the Atlantic in general; and Walker RN in particular-I have read this thread thoroughly-post by post.
I hope that no one will think me presumptuous if add a final touch; which I did not find in the thread.
Sir Max Horton read a Solemn Acknowledgement to the hushed thousand plus, that were packed into Liverpool Cathedral for Walker's funeral.This is the final paragraph of it; from the book "WALKER RN" by Terence Robinson published 1956, and I quote:-

"Victory has been won and should be won by such as he. May there never be wanting in this realm a succession of men of like spirit in discipline,imagination and valour ,humble and unafraid. Not dust,nor the light weight of a stone,but all the sea of the Western Approaches shall be his tomb."

NB A Communique issued by the Admiralty in 1950-five and a half years after Walker's death said :-
"Captain Walker,more than any other;won the Battle of the Atlantic.His methods had amazing success and more than any other factor gave the Royal Navy supremacy.It is only now that we have learned the full impact he had on the enemy.No tribute could be too high for the work he carried out."

jainso31

[red devil]

thank you jainso. I did know of these communique's

[jainso31]

Very informative site I must say red devil-thanks for sharing.:cool:

jainso31