Shell Casing

[greenrw]

Hi everyone,
A somewhat different area of the Forum for me, but this mail is one that may test the knowledge of our correspondents?
Any informed ordnance experts out there?
Attached is a photo of a Shell casing.
In old money it measures 4inches across the flanged end (in view) and 3-1/4inches over the expended end.
There are three equidistant, 120 deg apart, radial, inward pointing lugs which are also evident at the expended end.
Overall length is 7-13/16inches. "VS&M" together with other stamp markings have become evident, since my attempts at a clean up.
The casing was a keepsake from my granddads Naval career, during which time he was a "Gun layer" on various ships, spanning the years 1901 thru to 1921.
Can any one shed light on what these markings on the shell mean? In addition, from the list of his Shore bases & Ships to follow, hazard a guess as to where it may have originated from?

HMS Northampton
HMS Caracoa
HMS Penbroke 1 (Shore Base)
HMS Jupiter
HMS Wildfire (Shore Base)
HMS Simoom
HMS Irresistible
HMS Blake
HMS Blenheim
HMS Actaeon
HMS Illustrious
HMS Vivid 1 (Shore Base)
HMS Vengeance
HMS Lively ?
HMRT Cartmel

Bob W Green

[astraltrader]

I cant help much Bob - only to say that the circle with VSM in it is certainly the initials of the manufacturer of the shell case.
Secondly the 22 7 and 02 is IMO a straightforward date stamp such as used in many peices of china/porcelain. In this case it is obviously 22nd July 1902. Unfortunately although that might help you narrow the search nearer to which ship - the shell could have been up to 20 years old when finally used - but is more likely to be +5 years.

With regard to the other [and most interesting] initials - I haven`t got a clue - but wish you the best in trying to find out!!

[tonclass]

Don't forget the crows foot (Pussers arrer) & 'N' signifying the shell is MoD property, specifically Navy.

[Odin]

Also because the casings are MOD property, they weren't always that easy to 'acquire' or get ashore. It could be that your grandfather obtained the shell casing when he could and it may not even relate to a ship he was on.

In the 1970s I was dealing with a Contractor making a new batch of breech springs for saluting guns. No one had made any for decades and one of my colleagues found one in an old store in a dockyard which we could use for comparison purposes. It was from an old 3pdr Hotchkiss gun - same mechanism as the current saluting gun. The spring was stamped 1916. I've still got it somewhere and would like to think it played some part in WWI, but in truth I suspect it had been in that store for 60 years.

If I find it I'll post a photo of it

[herakles]

I still have my father's officers whistle from WW1. Still as good today as it was then.

[tomoian]

sv and m is vickers cfxf is where it was made near caphly wales 22/7/02 was when made n with arrow means naval g7 ref to what charge hope this helps

[greenrw]

Hi tomoian,
Thanks for the information. Saved me hours of fruitless searching. Believe me I`ve tried with zero results, so thanks again.
From my dimensions, is it possible to identify the "caliber" of the Shell?
That may lead me to a possible match of the armament carried by the ships I`ve listed.
Interesting to note, that the expended casings remained RN property.
It leads to speculation as to what "jiggery pokery" he might have got up too, to get it ashore?
Bob William Green

[tomoian]

i took the picture down to a friend who deals in shells ect this is the info he gave me i only took the picture i will ask again with the sizes ill reply soon:)

[greenrw]

Thanks shipmate, for your efforts on my behalf.
Hope I can return the favour, in being of assistance to you you the future.
Bob William Green

[tomoian]

couple of questions size how big is the shell from floor to the top. so far from what he has said .it would have been a separate charge shell .which means the the shell would have been loaded first. then the case you have would have had a sort of cardboard end on it .which would have been loaded in the gun up to the shell .he seems to think he would have proberly got it from one of the shore bases as it might have been easier to get away for a momento rather than on a ship at sea he is on a mission now to slove the problem for you proberly a light deck gun the shell would have been used for but not 100% yet will keep you updated is there any chance of a photo of the top of case and a side shot of it

[tomoian]

as you can see from this one that he has nearly the same his answer is a 25lb shell for use with a light deck gun

[stewart mcloughlin]

Why were some shells designated ??? inches and others ??? pounders?
What is the relationship, if any, between an incher and a pounder?
Why didn't they stick to one measurement?
You see that "the gun was uprated from a 3 incher to a 25 pounder", or whatever, when the two measurements do not relate.
Stewart

[Commodore Armiger]

Let's leave out pre-20th century for the moment at least. Otherwise we shall get totally confused.

During the 20th century the army certainly used "pounder", at least for its lighter guns, until post-WWII: thus 2pdr and 6 pdr AT, 18pdr and 25 pdr gun/howitzer. But larger guns were "inchers": thus 4.5" and 5.5" howitzer, 6", 7.5", 8" and 12" guns and howitzers. Army AA guns started as "pdr": 2pdr pom pom, moved on to inches: 3.7" AA, and then to mm: 40mm Bofors. The last would have been because they were designed in Sweden. Mortars were designated in inches: 2", 3", 4.2", later in mm: 81mm. British small arms were in inches: .22", .303", .45" etc. Imports were mostly in mm: 7.65mm, 9mm etc. Post WWII everyone gradually standardised on mm, though old kit was still designated in the old way (I was firing 25pdrs back in the 60s).

The Royal Navy (and Dominion Navies) used inches from 3 and up: 3", 3.7", 4", 4.5", 4.7", 5", 5.5", 6", 8", 12", 13.5", 15", 16" and 18" (and several others too). Early anti-torpedo boat guns were designated in pounds, as were early AA guns. Later AA guns, like the army were designated in mm: 40mm Bofors, 20mm Oerlikon. Most foreign navies used mm.

Why no standardisation earlier? It's a long story that goes back to the invention of the gun. More perhaps another time.

[stewart mcloughlin]

I can grasp the thought of a linear measurement, but the pounder version depends on how wide it is. You could equally have a 25 pounder at 3" wide or 4" wide. I shall await your future enlightenment Commodore.
Stewart

[greenrw]

Hi tomoian,
Additional photos of casing attached.
In "View 1" the length measures 200mm
(7-13/16"), View 2 shows the three equi- spaced radial indentations.
Whilst this e-mail is open, may I thank everyone who has responded to my original query. I had no idea it would have generated so much interest.
Bob William Green

[Commodore Armiger]

More about "pounder" and inches later. The more I ponder over Bob's shell-case the more I think it was for an 18 pdr gun/howitzer. Primarily an army gun, produced in tens of thousands and with a 3.3" calibre. Whether the gun this shell was used by was on a ship will require more research. Did the Navy use 18pdrs?

The fact is that all and sundry came to own brass shell cases after the two World Wars. My parents (father in the RAF) came to own a 3.7" AA shell-case. But as far as I know it had nothing to do with my father's service as he serviced Spits and the like. We did have an AA detachment on my Grammar School field however ...

[tomoian]

when i first showed him the photo of base his first words where 3.7 inch and it should have 3 indintations on the top of the rim but wasint to sure because he didnt see the overall lenght now i have the other pictures i shall pass on and hope he comes up with a more detailed offer

[Commodore Armiger]

The 3.7" AA case that my parents acquired is a good deal longer than the one under discussion, and no indentations. There were of course other 3.7" guns and the naval version, both older than the AA and intended for surface targets, may well have needed a much smaller propellant charge. Ho hum, more research ....