PDA

View Full Version : Help Identify Ship Hitler is on.


Christie
14-03-2008, 18:29
Hello,
My uncle carried a small version of this photo in his wallet. When I enlarged it I saw that he was in the picture. Now I am trying to get a biography of the photo.

What is the ship's name and the date it was taken?
I have been told it might be the Deustchland/Lutzow, Gneisenau, or Schornarst.

Any help would be apprecitated.

Christie

herakles
14-03-2008, 18:59
Welcome Christie! An interesting photo. But not much to go on. Is there anything else you can add that might help?

Batstiger
14-03-2008, 23:26
I'm hazarding a guess here! Judging by the size of the gun above his head
(depending on the camera position) I would say it was something bigger than those mentioned. This leaves the Bismark or the Tirpitz perhaps?

Bob.

Christie
17-03-2008, 15:58
The only details I can help with is a timeline of pre- 1942.

I have been told the guns and wheel do not help identify very well.

I am now hoping to identify the men with Hitler...possibly captain etc.

I wish there was a biography to go with the photo in a History book but I can not find anything.

This photo meant something to my uncle or he would not have kept it with his personal effects before his death.

Thank you for the replies....I love this website!!!

John Brown
17-03-2008, 16:37
Christie

You will see that the picture has a web address on it of www.axishistory.com.

The following page has your picture on it but with no information on the ship.

http://www.axishistory.com/index.php?id=4456

If you contact the site owner he might be able to give you more information.

You say that your uncle is actually in the photograph. Which of the gentlemen is he?

I have to say that I am with Bob in that it is either Tirpitz or Bismarck.

I am going to plump for Bismarck because I think (and only think) the three men with Hitler are Erich Raeder, Gunther Lutjens and Wilhelm Keitel. I believe they all made a visit to Bismarck with Hitler before her fateful voyage. I am open to contradiction though.

Regards....John

Christie
18-03-2008, 19:18
Thank you John,

I did request axishistory.com to give me the bio on the picture but Mr. Wendel did not have any info.

Thanks for the info on the bismarck...I will do some more research !!

My uncle is the one looking toward the camera! The Captains hand looks as if it could touch his leg.

Any History Buffs out there please feel free to help with this one.

Christie

warbreck
18-03-2008, 19:52
This overhead photo could probably cancel out Tirpitz. I don't see any kind of "ring", aft where usually inspections are done.
3844

Batstiger
19-03-2008, 10:45
Definately Bismarck or Tirpitz.
The ring is on top of the stern Capstan (see attachment)
They were also on the Forw'd Capstans.
Now we have to decide which ship it was!

Bob.

astraltrader
19-03-2008, 15:21
I think that between them Bob and JB have solved the mystery - it has to be the Bismarck!

Christie
19-03-2008, 17:57
Thanks for the help!!!

Now if I can find a crew listing and his name I can prove it.

I will post with any results. This means alot to me and I truly appreciate all the kindness you have shown by sharing your knowledge.

Christie

John Brown
20-03-2008, 17:15
Bob

Excellent photo. Now, we have a 50/50 chance at least of being right :o

Christie...

It might help if we new your uncles name!


John

John Brown
20-03-2008, 22:19
Sorry Bob but it looks as though I spoke too soon:(

Although I still believe the ship in question to be Bismarck or Tirpiz it seems other German heavy units had the spoked wheel atop their capstans too. Attached is a photo taken on Prinz Eugen and I have seen poorer quality pictures of similar wheels on Scharnhorst.

Regards...John

Christie
21-03-2008, 16:10
My uncles name is a mystery.

He became my uncle when I was three and is not a true blood relative but became family and remained with us until his death in 1994.

I know of two he used during his lifetime.
Jose Angel Leon Pasqual (before 1968)
Baron Alaric Jal Siefgried Ian Alex MacLeod Von Du Pascal Eric (68-1994)

A friend has checked some Crew listings and we can not find his name.
I fear he used another name before 1968 so Crew Listings may not be helpful.

I have another question ....Is is possible the ship in the photo could be the Graf Spee? A photo of the Graf Spee shows the wheel and it matches the one in the photo of my uncles. Also because a tug used to off load the crew had the "same" name as my Uncle.....Jose Pascaul. It sure seems to be a coincidence!!! My research may never end. Thanks for all the advice. Christie

Batstiger
21-03-2008, 20:15
We shall solve this problem one of these days Christie!
I think we can count the Graf Spee as a non starter for the simple reason that she didn't have a turret on the quarterdeck (see attachment) so the capstan would not have been in the picture.


For some reason this question appeared on another thread so I have deleted it so that we can concentrate on this thread.

Bob.

John Brown
21-03-2008, 22:50
Bob

Do we know for sure that Christies photo was taken on the quarterdeck. The Deutschlands did have the wheel atop their forward capstans.

It's amazing how easy the wheels are to spot when you know what you're looking for:)

Is it just me or does anybody else get the feeling that this gentleman didn't really want his history to be traced?

John

John Brown
22-03-2008, 09:21
Well! My theory about the picture being of Hitlers visit to Bismarck shortly before her fateful sortie is not worth a light.

Here is a picture taken on the day of that visit, 5th May 1941, and the crew are not wearing 'whites'.

Could still be Tirpiz?

John

romft1945
23-03-2008, 12:08
Could it be one of the Deutschland Class of Criusers as the had the large capstan wheel and it seemed a lot higher that the one on the Tirpitz,
Rom

astraltrader
23-03-2008, 14:13
I suppose one avenue of research worth delving into would be to establish what ships Hitler actually visited. Leaving the Bismark to one side as he did show an interest in her - I dont think he visited very many of the others and on many occaisions expressed a lack of interest/confidence in any surface ships...

romft1945
23-03-2008, 19:42
Terry Hitlers favourite ship was the Deutschland as it was named after the fatherland and was the most visited ship I gleamed this from Signal which was Hitlers WW11 newspaper that is why I posted it should have written this aswell so a bit more to go on,
ROM

herakles
23-03-2008, 20:02
The plot thickens! Rom, do you or someone else have a picture of Deutschland to post?

romft1945
23-03-2008, 20:07
here you go Herks two photos,
Rom

1 Deutschland
2 Deutschland later Lutzow

herakles
23-03-2008, 21:35
Nice one ROM!

romft1945
23-03-2008, 22:20
Christe was your uncle in the navy?
ROM

Batstiger
23-03-2008, 22:45
A couple more of the Deutschland.
As has correctly been stated the Deutschland was renamed Lutzow on the
15th February 1940.
I am still not satisfied as to which ship the thread starter was taken on. There must be more of the same picture about, let's find them!

Bob.

romft1945
23-03-2008, 22:49
The best one I could find of the Deutschland I have christie sent the photo to a webmaster of a German site so should get a good response I hope,
ROM
Sorry peoples my fault was given wrong info this is not the Deutschland anyone any idea?
ROM

Batstiger
23-03-2008, 23:20
Wasn't the Admiral Scheer the third one in the class?

Bob.

Christie
24-03-2008, 14:32
You guys are so impressive with your ships knowledge!!
You all are so kind and I hope you are enjoying this challenge as much as I am.
In reply to Mr. Brown....
My uncle is standing in this photo with Hitler....so yes he was in the Kriegsmarine. He carried a small version of the photo in his wallet....but Hitler and the other captains were cut off. I was amazed when I saw the complete picture just a few months ago and it lead me on this search. I have his military records and he was also in the British and US Armies. How??? I am trying to piece together this puzzle.

I do agree that he wanted his life to be a mystery...he did claim to also be in the OSS. He did not speak much of his past but only of books he was reading, cooking, or drawing. I met him when I was three and he only visted us every 5-10 years in person. When we did have time to talk he always wanted to know about me and to encourage my talents and education. That is one reason he means so much to me and I want to write a small "history" of his life for my families memories.
Thanks again to you all !!!

herakles
24-03-2008, 21:31
It seems your uncle led a most interesting life Christie!

I wish you well with your research as it seems the story is going to be fascinating.

Hmmm, the number of kids who will have vague memories of some old salt suddenly appearing out of nowhere, staying for a bit then leaving again.

John Brown
24-03-2008, 22:56
It seems Hitler sailed into Memel (Lithuania) on the Deutschland when Germany annexed the district in March 1939. I could find no more info than this. Perhaps the photo was taken then?


John

romft1945
25-03-2008, 10:41
Here is the answer to all your questions the reply from Germany this morning has confirmed it to be the Deutschland,
ROM:p

herakles
25-03-2008, 10:47
This has been a long journey!

It's good to know at last. Well done ROM.

Batstiger
25-03-2008, 11:56
Here is the answer to all your questions the reply from Germany this morning has confirmed it to be the Deutschland,
ROM


It's not that I doubt you Rom but what reply?

Bob.

Christie
09-04-2008, 15:59
I received some info.
The picture is published in a book about Obersalzberg with a caption reading Werner von Fritsch with Hitler.
Hitler dismissed Fritsch in 1938.

Will post if any more detail surface!

John Brown
10-04-2008, 20:59
Von Fritsch was recalled to the Army just prior to the start of WW2. On the 22nd Sept 1939 during the invasion of Poland he became the first German General to die in the war.

Therfore if von Fritsch is in the photo (personally I'm not convinced) then it obviously pre dates 22nd Sept 1939. More probably though it would have been taken before he fell from grace after being accused of homosexuallity in 1938.


John

Christie
11-04-2008, 16:08
I have been told this actual picture is printed in color in a book published in 1934 !! I am trying to locate a copy of the book so I can see it for myself.

Also possibilites on the ship.....Deutschland, Schleswig-Holstein, or Koln.

When I get to heaven and get to see my uncle I am going to pinch him for not telling me more about this photo!! He was an awsome man and wish you all could have met him. You would understand why I cared about him and am so intriqued about his life.

Thanks to all,
Christie

Batstiger
11-04-2008, 16:22
Well you have certainly kept this thread going Christie, it has been most interesting. I hope you find your answer and I am sure you will share it with us and not leave us in suspense when you do.

'Good luck'

Bob.

John Brown
12-04-2008, 16:31
Yes

Keep us informed Christie but......

aren't we still awaiting confirmation from ROM that the ship is Deutschland?

I doubt it is Koln simply by the size of the gun barrel in the photo.

regards...John

Christie
22-04-2008, 16:21
Yes, I was hoping ROM would confirm Deustchland with proof for me.

If no proof is available then I am going to look at the Cadet training ships.
Schulschiff Schleswig or Schlesien-Holstein have been mentioned to me. I do not speak German and many of the websites will not translate.

So if anyone can check these out and tell me in English...I would appreciate the effort. It is amazing we can have this discussion and all be on different parts of the globe!!!

Blessings to all,
Christie:

MCM Matze
12-04-2009, 00:53
The best one I could find of the Deutschland I have christie sent the photo to a webmaster of a German site so should get a good response I hope,
ROM
Sorry peoples my fault was given wrong info this is not the Deutschland anyone any idea?
ROM

This coloured picture shows "Admiral Scheer" passing Kiel Canal prior WW2. Some time later her appearance was changed as her conning tower was converted more similar to "Deutschland/Lützow" and she got an "atlantic bow". On this picture she looks exactly like "Admiral Graf Spee" but has not "Spee's" crest or "Coronel" plaquette.

MCM Matze
13-04-2009, 07:43
Wasn't the Admiral Scheer the third one in the class?

Bob.

Really fine picture Bob. "Admiral Scheer" was Panzerschiff 'B'. So she was 2nd of the class.

Rgds
Matze

Beery
15-04-2009, 20:19
here you go Herks two photos,
Rom

1 Deutschland

I wish we could see that photo a bit clearer, but the capstan in that first photo of the Deutschland certainly looks a lot like the one in the original post.

[edit] Ooops. I guess this one has been answered already - I was still on page 1 when I posted.