Dutch 1047 Project

[watson374]

The Dutch 1047 project was for three very fast battlecruisers to defend the Netherlands East Indies (modern Indonesia). Like the preceding Dutch capital ship plan (the 1913 dreadnought plan), it never happened.

I'm just wondering, tho. Could it have happened? Would it have worked?

And most importantly to me, what would make the ideal Dutch Battlecruiser for defending the Netherlands East Indies ?

[designeraccd]

Lots of modern fighter aircraft to help them stay afloat when the IJN's carrier force came calling; see PoW and Repulse. Handfuls of Brewster Buffalos don't count!

As I recall the "theory" behind these 3 ships was primarily to defend against the IJN's cruiser force. Their theory was that the USN would "occupy" the IJN heavy ships; so much for theory. I've never read that the Dutch were overly concerned with either the 4 Kongos, or more importantly their carriers. Of course, that did not make the Dutch unique, pre war, in radically underestimating air power. DFO ;)

Here is a good link about them: http://www.netherlandsnavy.nl/Special_battlecruiser.htm

[watson374]

Lots of modern fighter aircraft to help them stay afloat when the IJN's carrier force came calling; see PoW and Repulse. Handfuls of Brewster Buffalos don't count!

As I recall the "theory" behind these 3 ships was primarily to defend against the IJN's cruiser force. Their theory was that the USN would "occupy" the IJN heavy ships; so much for theory. I've never read that the Dutch were overly concerned with either the 4 Kongos, or more importantly their carriers. Of course, that did not make the Dutch unique, pre war, in radically underestimating air power. DFO ;)

Here is a good link about them: http://www.netherlandsnavy.nl/Special_battlecruiser.htm

Since it was meant to be strategic defence using tactical offence (the way I see it), do you think land-based planes would be good enough? I suppose tropicalised Bf 109s would be up to it.

I'm thinking tho', the idea was that the Dutch BCs would be 34 kn-ers - that's 4 kn faster than the 4 Kongos. I suppose with 34 kn speed, 3x3 11" guns, armoured against 8" fire and air cover (most important) they ought to be a decent deterrent.

Theory? ;P

[designeraccd]

IF the IJN followed the Dutch "plan" and only used their CAs and CLs. Of course their Long Lance torpedoes could have provided an unpleasant suprise, too. Those were on DDs, CLs and CAs but the Allies did not know of them pre-war.

Given that the plan was to have the battlecruisers by 1944 I'd suspect they would have been even more vulnerable to the IJN's combined arms by then. DFO ;)

[watson374]

IF the IJN followed the Dutch "plan" and only used their CAs and CLs. Of course their Long Lance torpedoes could have provided an unpleasant suprise, too. Those were on DDs, CLs and CAs but the Allies did not know of them pre-war.

Given that the plan was to have the battlecruisers by 1944 I'd suspect they would have been even more vulnerable to the IJN's combined arms by then. DFO ;)

Doesn't stop me being intrigued. IIRC, the underwater protection was the one thing holding the Dutch back.

It's all hypothetical, of course. I can't help but wonder if the three had been built, what would have happened? They run circles around the NEI while the IJN chases them till the RN/USN arrive? ;D

[BlackBat242]

Given the historical command rendered by Adm K. Doorman, they would be used offensively, trying to break up invasion fleets before they can get close to shore.

Since the early threats were to the Philippines and north Borneo, they team up early with the US Asiatic Fleet and the RN/RAN cruiser/destroyer forces in the area and go "Jap-hunting".

Adm. Doorman was an aggressive-minded commander, and giving him 3 battlecruisers would be a very interesting scenario.

[Graham Barnes]

Hello,

I believe--if memory serves--the Netherlands Navy BCs were very similar in design to Germany's SCHARNHORST/GNEISENAU ships.
There are plans in the classic Siegfried Dreyer (?) book, IIRC.

However, given the paucity of Dutch air force assets in the Far East, these ships would have merely provided two more large, tempting targets for the IJN's planes, both shore-based and carrier-borne, once the Japanese decided to move south.

[designeraccd]

The link I added in post #2 provides many drawings of the proposed designs.

If they would have been built, without good air cover....they certainly would have shared the fate of PoW and Repulse. Under Adm. Doorman's direction the ABDA "fleet" was decimated; altho many factors contributed to that besides his leadership. DFO :eek:

[Hank]

Right. Greater airpower on the part of the Allied effort faced with Count General Terinachi's Southern Expeditionary Force would have been key to a force reduction policy. Such didn't occur, Japanese planning had been in a constently evolving state that the plans were constantly updated from 1933. The Japanese Navy operated twin-engine medium bombers from land.


"Given that the plan was to have the battlecruisers by 1944 I'd suspect they would have been even more vulnerable to the IJN's combined arms by then."

Well, designer, the dates you mention regarding the operational usage of the cruisers indicate that the Japanese had hit the wall by this time. The Hamalia operations that destroyed oil production in 1943 were having the effects felt, as were the constant personel attrition and maintainance constraints. The Guam defensive area got the beans.

[Blaydon]

Of course the building of these vessels would pre-dispose that the European war had not occurred and that would have had a dramatic difference to the conduct of the war in the pacific.

Many more allied units available in the pacific region may even have disuaded the japanese from taking offensive action as the British, French and Dutch would not have been occupied elsewhere.