Thai death and funerals - งานศพ

[herakles]

A very dear Thai friend of mine here told me today that her mother has but a few days to live. I was sad for her sake but this is not the Thai way. Unlike in Western countries, death and funerals here are not tragic events. A funeral is certainly a great celebration, the biggest of them all.

Thais spend their lives gathering merit points (good karma). They collect these by doing good. When a person dies, they go to Heaven and how long they stay there is determined by how many points they collected. They may have to wait some time which is good. If they were very bad in life and only collected bad karma, they will be re-born straight away into a life of misery. But for most Thais, sooner or later they are born again into a good life. The aim is to be so good that after a great many re-births they are re-born as a monk and on that death, they enter Nirvana or eternal life. They are then called a Buddha. The man who founded the religion is called The Buddha or The Lord Buddha.

A funeral is a community event that lasts several days. Monks visit the house every day to say prayers. Just how elaborate the service is depends on the importance of the person and their wealth. Food is freely available and people come and go. There are no tears or mourning. You make homage by holding a single lit candle and making a wai (hands together at the chest, fingers outstretched).

As a older person here I am always being greeted with a wai. It is a sign of respect. You don't return it. I would greet an older man or a senior monk with a wai.

Important people are kept for many days after their death. The King will be kept for a year. On the final day (determined by the monks) the coffin is escorted to the temple led by a man carrying a white banner on a pole. Everyone follows just behind the monks who hold a green ribbon attached to the coffin. Attending gains you merit points too. There may be a band. The coffin is placed on a pyre of bricks and people come up with lighted tapers and toss them beneath the coffin. Cremation frees the spirit. After cremation, the ashes are placed in an urn and kept.

I am wondering what is going to happen here on the death of the King. He is far from well and in his 80's. This man is loved by the people in a way I have never experienced. In fact he is revered. His funeral is going to be a magnificent event. Everywhere you travel in this country, you will pass a great many displays of the King. Often huge billboards or overhead signs. And everywhere is the Thai flag as well. Only recently, a Swiss man was given 10 years jail for placing his feet on a picture of the King.

[romft1945]

Very interesting reading always wondered what that meant when they put there hands together I gathered it was some form of greeting but now I know,
Thanks Rom:)

[kc]

An interesting post for sure herakles. It is interesting and worthwhile to learn about other cultures, and I genuinely read your post and learnt something.

I have to say that on a personal level I am completely against religion, but that is probably based on the western religion(s) that I have experienced. I have always, as far back as I can remember, been an atheist, and now I have a degree in physics, this knowledge has only added to my skepticism about religious claims.

However, I am not stupid enough to think that everyone should think this way, I will leave that aspect to religions themselves. As I get older, it is possible my view will change, but for the moment I think this is unlikely. My ideology (not faith or religion) is to live and let live so long as no-one comes to harm. In this day and age that is difficult, and I expect at least some of you, especially those of another generation, will disagree with that. Whether I'm right or wrong, I enjoy the contemplation.

Does it matter if the religion is right or wrong when they can celebrate death in such a way? Is what might be considered a blinkered view the way ahead if you can successfully shut out what you need to? Is that wrong? Interested to hear opinions, despite the fact this is nothing at all to do with boats at all.

Sorry to Herakles for going WAAAAY off topic, but this post inspired my mind. Maybe I am wrong in my beliefs?!













...but I doubt it. :)

[herakles]

I'll join this debate.

I'm completely with you Kc. I too am a committed atheist. But I'm not so arrogant as to deny the beliefs that others hold. I too am a scientist so I actually understand our World as to not need the belief of a deity to explain it. Any one of the hundreds than Man has invented in order to remove his fear of the unknown. My recent studies in Cosmology were most enlightening as now I do understand matters as esoteric as he origin of our universe.

I reject all belief systems as illogical. As once a person says "I believe" then they are protected against any alternative view.

It saddens me greatly that throughout history almost all of Mankind's woes have a religious basis. It gets worse; the fine teachings of the various founders of the main religions have had their words and thoughts altered to suit those currently in power.

The way forward is of course by education. Yet there are many places where this is denied children so that they are only exposed to those beliefs their elders want them to be exposed to.

I am very impressed with Buddhism. I see it more as a philosophy than a religion. It must be the reason why the people here in Thailand are so obviously a thoroughly decent, gentle and caring people. Yet I would describe myself as an intellectual Buddhist only. I have read a great deal about the life of The Buddha and am hugely impressed with it. A man who always denied any god-like status. So much common sense and humanity. But his concepts have been taken over in day to day Buddhist life and much mumbo-jumbo is performed.

Laissez faire would describe my outlook. I'm not in the conversion business. People can lead whatever lives they choose so long as they don't hurt others.

But I will say this; Christianity certainly produced some marvellous music.

[BB60]

I am at the other end of the spectrum, I am a Christian, one of those narrow-minded Baptists. I went from being a Christian as a child, to embracing atheism as a young man, then back to Christianity as I grew older, eventually being ordained as a deacon, although I am presently inactive. I can't imagine not being a Christian.

I'm not here to preach, nor do I wear my faith on my sleeve, and I do support evangelical efforts. If someone has question, I will answer them, but not to the point of arguing.

Odd thing is that my parents, who hog-tied me and forced me to attend worship and other functions, no longer go to church, while I, who fought them tooth and nail as an adolescent, rarely miss an opportunity.

[kc]

Thanks for respoinding herakles,

I didn't know that there was such a thing as a committed atheist, at least not since the middle-ages :).

However, my view of the world is such that I interpret the views of almost all religion as oppressive and controlling - You think this way because we told you to think this way and everyone else must be wrong. My view of the scientific approach, and I mean the original / true meaning of this, is we might be right, we might be wrong, but this is the best explanation we have. If you've got something better let's take a look at it.

I have no experience of buddhism so could not comment on it, though it has always been called a religion where I come from, I expect it is down to the user how to interpret that as an ideology, philosophy, religion, fact or whatever. As religions go, it seems to me that it is the best - however non-scientific.

I better say I don't want to upset people by posting on this thread, it is purely for discussion and if you are, for example, a die-hard Christian please don't take offence. It is always better to learn more before making a decision where possible, and my posts in this thread are aiming discussion towards that. I better stop philosophising for tonight - too much of it is bad for you! (not to mention can keep you awake for hours)

[kc]

just to say Jeff, we crossed posts, in case anything I said in my post sounds like a reply.

[kc]

Jeff,

age certainly seems to be an issue in your story - changing as you aged I suppose. I am not closed minded enough to say I will never be religious, never say never and all that, but I feel lucky to have been able to make my own mind up. I feel able to look into a church during a service for example, and say what exactly is it you think you are doing other than singing at a wall?

There are so many questions here - it's a can of worms. Should I embrace religion for the community aspect of it? Should I regard it as foolish with my knowledge of physics and disregard it? Should I be angry that religion takes up so much of my world and seek to get rid of it? Do some people need it?

I think I have made my mind up, but absolutely everybody is different, I'm just glad I'm young enough to hopefully use this decision in life. Anyway, stop making interesting discussion when I need to get some sleep! :)

[herakles]

I was brought up in a thoroughly traditional CofE way and in a great public school where I was head chorister. I can still sing any hymn or psalm you throw at me! But my doubts started as I started learning science and they continued to increase until the day came when I rejected religion. I didn't take the coward's way out and declare as an agnostic. I committed myself to atheism.

I don't regard science as an alternative. I do think that Man has been slowly clawing his way to the truth, to an understanding of Nature. We are certainly not there yet. But the more we discover of the true nature of the world, the less it is necessary to pretend.

It is helpful to realise that those countries that have made the most advances in science are the same ones that threw off the onerous shackles of organised religion. Countries like England and The Netherlands. Just as it is telling that no advances in science have been made in the Middle East countries.

Some people clearly need religion in their lives. As the established church becomes fragmented, many of these people resort to other strong belief systems to take its place such as a strident belief in the Green movement or the ridiculous notion that we are causing the current earth warming because of our excessive creation of carbon dioxide.

I guess I am fortunate in that I live within a society that is so tolerant. Those of you that live in one where the Established Church is foremost have a need to temper your outlook for fear of retribution.

One vital spin-off of my stand is that it caused me to examine very closely the role of morality. Because to reject religion forces one to at least question its other values. If not reject them also. And adopt a different set.

Now this IS a can of worms.

[BB60]

just to say Jeff, we crossed posts, in case anything I said in my post sounds like a reply.
I didn't take it as such.

[astraltrader]

Herk - I too went to a public school and was head choirister as well!
Yet another strange coincidence...
I do not consider myself as religious - but try and keep an open mind - especially about life after death...
I respect all people who show respect to others.

[herakles]

I respect all people who show respect to others.

Do unto others as ... ... ...

Though sometimes it's very hard to do this!