Canadan Victoria Class Submarines.

[derek s.langsdon]

From "The Ottawa Citizen" October 27th,2011.

"The Federal Government is considering mothballing some or all of it's four British-made Victoria-class submarines, It was reported on CBS News Thursday night.
Defence Minister Peter Mackay said that nuclear submarines may be the way to go for Canada

Public reaction, particularly regarding the cost, running to five or six billion Canadian dollars would not be good'

The Victoria Class submarine has been the subject of much debate in Canada following HMCS Corner Brook being damaged when it hit the ocean floor in June. It is in dock for repair and overhaul but is not expected back to sea un til 2016.

HMCS Chicoulimi,damaged by a fire in 2004 that killed one officer,still remains sidelined, leaving only HMCS Windsor and HMCS Victoria, which are also not presently available for duty.,but according to Navy spokesman
Lt.Cmdr.Brian Owens should be back at sea early in 2012.

derek-L

.

[jainso31]

thank you for your interesting post Derek.
As an addendum to it-some information and details about this class of boat; along with existing service history.

jainso31
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Upholder/Victoria_class_submarine

[derek s.langsdon]

Many thanks that very informative background including the paragraph on Canada...I see that since my posting- Defense Minister Mckay says they NOT contemplating Nuclear (not enough in the bank)...and that we now have had
excellent exchanges on the "Chicoutimi" following KC's posting under that heading
with my regards

derek-L

[astraltrader]

Well I really hope that next year will still see at least Windsor and Victoria back in service. I am probably now in a minority but I still believe them to be fine diesel submarines.

[BCRenown]

To be totally honest here, Canada can no longer rely on British ingenuity and quality. Those submarines are nothing short of disgraceful and it's no wonder Canadian public opinion, among those who even care, is well down regarding the purchase of warships from 'abroad'. Once bitten, twice shy.

A shipment of I*XL pocket knives would be welcomed though. The folks in Sheffield still seem to have their act together.

The Americans have pretty much cut us off from their high-tech military stuff, yet we're the first country they call on when they need help and we're the first to respond. I guess we're on our own from here on in.

Monty, calling it as I see it, and with malice toward none.

[iantait]

seemed to work well enough in the RN

[astraltrader]

A very good point Ian. At least some of the misfortune that seem to have dogged this class of submarine since being sold to Canada cannot be regarded as the fault of the boats!

[RANFAN]

Wonder if the Canadians would be interested in the next generation submarine being designed in Australia, hopefully we will get the 12 Rudd sub from 2025 or may build the current design with a different power pack considering the problems with Hedemora diesels.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collins_class_submarine_replacement_project

Building a hi-tech submarine their is bound to be problems if Australia and Canada join in the design and build in their prospective shipyards it might be a win-win for both our nations
http://www.aph.gov.au/library/pubs/rp/2001-02/02RP03.htm
http://www.journal.forces.gc.ca/vo6/no3/maritim-marin-eng.asp

I think the problems from RN service to RCN service was the amount of time between sitting neglected for several years, Australia looked at these as well whist Collins was being designed as a stopgap but on inspecting ran away from them as fast as we could.

[Brian Wentzell]

RanFan: For once (some would say) your guys did the right thing! Pity, we Canadians could not have talked to your folk. Salt water in the diesel fuel tanks for several years should have been a clue for our guys.

Regards,
Brian

[RANFAN]

RanFan: For once (some would say) your guys did the right thing! Pity, we Canadians could not have talked to your folk. Salt water in the diesel fuel tanks for several years should have been a clue for our guys.

Regards,
Brian


Their are a lot of hard lessons learnt when building the Collins class and the remedial action needed to get Collins to where they are today, but it remains to be seen if the pollies have learnt to keep their nose out of some thing they know little about and get contracts that aren’t wishy washy and everyone knows what is expected of them, put huge financial penalties in the contracts and I bet they don’t stuff you around and deliver what they say they can deliver.

[Shinysheff]

From what I've read the Collins class aren't in much better shape than the Victorias. It is a disgrace the way the Upholders have ended up, it 'should' have been a great deal for Canada.

[Teuchter]

Alas I'm no expert on submarines, however there does seem to be two schools of opinion on the Upholder class - I would like to read the opinions some of our own more knowledgeable members on the matter.

So come on then submariners - "let's be 'avin you"

[iantait]

the upholder boats were built for the RN and when the requirements changed and our O boats (I'm only speculating here) were getting to the end of service life as we only built 4 we opted out of them.I think each one only did 1 commission.maybe Canada were a bit hasty and didn't really look to see if they were what they really wanted and jumped in feet first.They would probably have been better going for the swedes choices but the price probably sealed the deal I do hope they turn out all right in the end though. Ian

[LSRP2]

The Canadian governments have for the past few decades been reluctant to actually spend real money on the Forces. The navy was left with a great number of older vessels, which in their prime were excellent. However, technology advances and age made them shadows of their former selves. When the O-boats were decomissioned the government of the day jumped at the Upholder class to replace them. Same political party which brought in Integration in the late 1960s, scraped HMCS Bonaventure (after a multi-million dollar refit)in 1970, had the 280s and Halifax class frigates built and then cancelled the building program - allowing a large ship building talent pool to move away. Anyone else seeing a pattern here??

[astraltrader]

I still think Canada should stay with it and make good use of at least 3 of them.

[harry.gibbon]

Alas I'm no expert on submarines, however there does seem to be two schools of opinion on the Upholder class - I would like to read the opinions some of our own more knowledgeable members on the matter.

So come on then submariners - "let's be 'avin you"

T

Try some of this:-
---------
Commander Jonathan (Jonty) Powis left the Royal Navy in 2006 after 32 years service mostly in submarines.

He specialised in navigation, saw action in the Falklands conflict in HMS Conqueror and subsequently commanded the Diesel Submarine HMS Unseen and the strategic missile submarines HM ships Resolution and Victorious.
---------

Taken from:-

http://www.rnsubs.co.uk/Community/Forum/index.php?topic=2342.0;prev_next=next

Little h

[Brian Wentzell]

Harry: Cdr. Powis speaks from his time as CO of a nearly new submarine and undoubtedly HMS Unseen worked to his satisfaction.

Most of the problems faced by Canada seem to relate to two subsequent events. First, none of the four boats were mothballed in any proper sense. They were not stored in a dehumidified state or an operational state. Fuel tanks were filled with sea water so running of the main machinery and systems were not possible. Second, none of the boats ever underwent deep maintenance and therefore one of the big Canadian challenges has been doing the first deep maintenance work period on each boat. There was no experienced RN hands to draw upon.

Another factor has been the need to source spares for an orphan class. The supply chain has had to be recreated. In addition the decision to refit the boats to handle American torpedoes and a Singer Librascope fire control system has proven to be another source of delay and extra cost even though both were salvaged from the decommissioned Oberon Class submarines.

In short, I think the Canadian Navy did not understand what they had purchased. What looked like a good deal from a purchase price perspective has become a nightmare from an engineering view.

The four boats have operated about 900 days (about 2.5 years) out of a combined 37 years of Canadian ownership. This is not good news from a performance perspective.

While the Commander of the Navy remains steadfast in his defence of the submarines, the taxpayer is getting weary and the credibility of the RCN is at risk. This is a real worry to those of us who support the maintenance of a credible flexible navy that can operate in our three oceans and beyond when necessary.

Regards,
Brian

[Teuchter]

T

Try some of this:-
---------
Commander Jonathan (Jonty) Powis left the Royal Navy in 2006 after 32 years service mostly in submarines.

He specialised in navigation, saw action in the Falklands conflict in HMS Conqueror and subsequently commanded the Diesel Submarine HMS Unseen and the strategic missile submarines HM ships Resolution and Victorious.
---------

Taken from:-

http://www.rnsubs.co.uk/Community/Forum/index.php?topic=2342.0;prev_next=next

Little h

Thanks h - very informative.

[Ex-Dragoon]

What we need is someone that can sell why the RCN needs submarines better then the CMS has been doing. Oh I know he is doing his best but he is falling short on relaying to Joe Taxpayer why we as a maritime nation need subs.

[astraltrader]

Harry: Cdr. Powis speaks from his time as CO of a nearly new submarine and undoubtedly HMS Unseen worked to his satisfaction.

Most of the problems faced by Canada seem to relate to two subsequent events. First, none of the four boats were mothballed in any proper sense. They were not stored in a dehumidified state or an operational state. Fuel tanks were filled with sea water so running of the main machinery and systems were not possible. Second, none of the boats ever underwent deep maintenance and therefore one of the big Canadian challenges has been doing the first deep maintenance work period on each boat. There was no experienced RN hands to draw upon.

Another factor has been the need to source spares for an orphan class. The supply chain has had to be recreated. In addition the decision to refit the boats to handle American torpedoes and a Singer Librascope fire control system has proven to be another source of delay and extra cost even though both were salvaged from the decommissioned Oberon Class submarines.

In short, I think the Canadian Navy did not understand what they had purchased. What looked like a good deal from a purchase price perspective has become a nightmare from an engineering view.

The four boats have operated about 900 days (about 2.5 years) out of a combined 37 years of Canadian ownership. This is not good news from a performance perspective.

While the Commander of the Navy remains steadfast in his defence of the submarines, the taxpayer is getting weary and the credibility of the RCN is at risk. This is a real worry to those of us who support the maintenance of a credible flexible navy that can operate in our three oceans and beyond when necessary.

Regards,
Brian

Some very good points you made there Brian.

Do you have any idea what [very roughly] the subs have cost Canada so far and also what [again very roughly] would be a ball-park figure of the cost to purchase 4 new diesel subs today?? [just curious]

I expect I am probably asking a lot with this question but I feel it would be an interesting comparison.... :)

[RANFAN]

Australian replacement budget for Collins class for 12 sub is running up to 25 Billion AUD, their has been talk of the current Virginia class in 2009 running at 1.8 Billion USD(Wiki), but a recent article in one of the main stream newspaper (cannot remember which one) recommended that we abandon the replacement sub and buy Virginia class that are costing the USN approx 1 billion per vessel, sounds good but with no indigenous nuclear industries in Australia(ANSTO Lucas Heights) it would easily meet the 25 Billion set aside as we have no infrastructure to handle nuclear powered ship or boats or the political will.

With hindsight Canada would have been better to go with a Collins for a conventional submarine, but reality for Canada would have been 4 Los Angeles class for their long voyages under the ice and their closeness to American infrastructure for maintenance issues

[Brian Wentzell]

Terry and RANFAN: Thanks for the questions and information, respectively. On the issue of what have the four Victoria/Upholder class cost Canada: the figure being talked about by unofficial sources is about CAD 3 Billion when all is done. The original purchase price was about CAD 850 Million with perhaps the full cost being less than CAD 2 Billion.

Without any infrastructure spending, the purchase price of four Virginia Class SSNs would be at least USD 4 Billion. Canada has no technical ability to support nuclear submarines and that would be a show stopper. In any event I don't see Canadians supporting the purchase idea.

By the way HMS Unseen became HMCS Corner Brook and until her recent underwater grounding was the best running boat of the four. She spent about 26% of her Canadian days at sea.

Brian

[RANFAN]

Current Virginia class nuclear submarine have a diesel –electric back up system capable of power all the systems on the submarine, from what I have read on the class they also have the snorkel fitted to recharge the batteries. If the space for the nuclear propulsion system was deleted wonder how that would affect the boat.

Reading on about next generation of batteries for the Collins submarine replacement future generation batteries will be smaller and hold their charge for longer period of times. If this is correct then fewer batteries would be needed for the same level of endurance which will produce more room inside of the boat for the proposed operation of small UUV operating from Collins replacement submarine. If the space set aside from the nuclear propulsion system it also might be able to house small UUV from the area, a naval architect would have a better idea if this was achievable or not.

http://www.onlineopinion.com.au/view.asp?article=7145
http://www.asc.com.au/aspx/submarines_submarines_of_future.aspx

[Brian Wentzell]

RANFAN: You have contemplated something that is not entirely novel. As a matter of interest, some naval officers note that the Upholder/Victoria Class SSK was a conventional version of the Trafalgar Class SSN in terms of many of its combat systems and hull design. That is not to say the concept was bad but perhaps it has yet to reach a state of maturity.

Brian

[davep]

i was working in faslane at the time upholder was doing her trials and there were a lot of snags reported and although most were sorted out i beleive there was some serious ones to do with either the torpedo loading or the tubes themselves.
after a few incidents she was always escorted when going diving and although i beleive most of the problems were just first of class snags they were sorted out but we probably didnt operate them for long enough to iron out all the problems which is what the canadians are now coming up against.

Just my take on things as i'm a tuperware sailor myself based at faslane

Dave

[astraltrader]

Terry and RANFAN: Thanks for the questions and information, respectively. On the issue of what have the four Victoria/Upholder class cost Canada: the figure being talked about by unofficial sources is about CAD 3 Billion when all is done. The original purchase price was about CAD 850 Million with perhaps the full cost being less than CAD 2 Billion.

Without any infrastructure spending, the purchase price of four Virginia Class SSNs would be at least USD 4 Billion. Canada has no technical ability to support nuclear submarines and that would be a show stopper. In any event I don't see Canadians supporting the purchase idea.

By the way HMS Unseen became HMCS Corner Brook and until her recent underwater grounding was the best running boat of the four. She spent about 26% of her Canadian days at sea.

Brian


Thanks for that Brian. Do you think the class will end up being scrapped or do you think there is still a chance they will soldier on and finally get them sorted??

I for one would like to see that happen.

[Teuchter]

I'm with you on that one Terry - especially after reading the link provided by little h in #16 - written by someone who knows more than any of us about the class!!

[Brian Wentzell]

Terry: I think we will know the answer to your question when the 2012-2013 budget comes down next spring. All federal government departments have been asked to prepare two budget requests, one with a 5% reduction and another with a 10% reduction over the current year. This suggests a CAD 1-2 Billion reduction in defence and defence is the largest discretionary spending that the federal government has. This will sound familiar to you in the UK. I doubt that the whole class will be scrapped but I think one boat could be placed nominally in reserve as a spare parts source.

Brian

[Ex-Dragoon]

THe CMS was pretty adamant when he appeared on W5 a couple of weeks ago that all the Victoria class will be going back to sea at some point within the next couple of years and the upcoming budget restraints were known back then.

[Brian Wentzell]

Ex-Dragoon: I know the CMS (Chief of Maritime Staff) has been adamant on retaining all the boats. However, I am told they consume 30% of the naval maintenance budget and the question I have is how is the Navy going to fund new tasks such as the full time presence of a frigate in the Med in 2012. Something will have to give or a transfer of resources to the navy for increased operations and maintenance will be required.

Brian

[Ex-Dragoon]

I agree...I guess my point is he would not have been authorized to say what he did without knowing if funding for the subs would continue or not.

[astraltrader]

Terry: I think we will know the answer to your question when the 2012-2013 budget comes down next spring. All federal government departments have been asked to prepare two budget requests, one with a 5% reduction and another with a 10% reduction over the current year. This suggests a CAD 1-2 Billion reduction in defence and defence is the largest discretionary spending that the federal government has. This will sound familiar to you in the UK. I doubt that the whole class will be scrapped but I think one boat could be placed nominally in reserve as a spare parts source.

Brian


That would make great sense and be a feasible way of keeping the class operational. :)

Brian - clearly you appear to have your ear to the ground regarding these fine boats and I would appreciate you adding any new facts to this thread as and when they occur. :)

[Brian Wentzell]

Terry: I will keep my ear to the ground or an eye on the water, should HMCS Windsor get back into Halifax Harbour!
Cheers,
Brian

[Brian Wentzell]

Update: As always the story of the Victoria/Upholder Class submarines creates controversy. While there are some indications that HMCS Windsor is emerging from its tent like protective cover after many years in refit, the details of the damage to HMCS Corner Brook from its underwater collision in June 2011 with a feature in Nootka Sound, British Columbia are beginning to emerge. For pictures go to http://www.cbc.ca and click on News.

The pictures show the fiberglass bow covering the sonar array completely smashed. The array is exposed for the world to see. Although partially covered by a tarpaulin, the torpedo tube doors seem to be damaged. The Royal Canadian Navy says the pressure hull is in tact but the forward starboard ballast tank has a hole in it. Whether the torpedo tubes are still properly aligned is unknown as is the symetry of the pressure hull. Fortunately, none of the 60 persons on board were seriously injured. The Board of Inquiry, not made public except by way of summary,did recommend that the CO be relieved of command and this was done.

The Deputy Commander of the Navy, RAdm Mark Norman, says it was a fender bender and the damage, of unknown extent and cost, will be repaired as part of the current extended docking work period. This will end, perhaps, in 2015 or 2016.

The problem is why did it take exposure by the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation to bring the matter to the attention of taxpayers. Was it cover-up or embarrassment on the part of the Navy? Is it fear that the government, in a time of financial austerity, will cut the troubled submarine program?

The government admits the submarine program has had spotty results but professes to be holding firm on its support. However, it is starting to refer to the purchase as being authorized by a previous government. This is not a good sign.

The result is that there may be two submarines in the water this year with HMCS Victoria becoming fully operational and who knows when HMCS Windsor becomes fully operational. HMCS Chicoutimi is due to be operational in 2013 after fire damage repairs and a complete extended work period.

Stay tuned, this story is not finished.

Brian

[astraltrader]

Thanks for the update Brian - I look forward to seeing at least a couple of these fine boats regularly in service in the not too distant future!

[Blackfly]

I agree...I guess my point is he would not have been authorized to say what he did without knowing if funding for the subs would continue or not.

Sorry, I have to say BONAVENTURE to that.

[Ex-Dragoon]

Long before my time...any examples in the last 20-25 years in the Navy I can relate to?

[JohnS]

Latest news about RCN subs.

Feb. 27, 2012 Sub Update (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/canadas-stuck-with-second-hand-subs-until-2030-navy-says/article2351916/)

[astraltrader]

Thanks very much for the heads-up John.

I am pleased with what I read. Yes there clearly has been a mixture of ill-fortune and problems converting the boats to Canadian operating requirements but there is no reason at all why the next two years shouldn't end up being the start of 15-20 years of sterling service for the class.

I truly hope so. :)

[Brian Wentzell]

Terry and John: There seems to be a sense of optimism on the submarine issue in the RCN and in the government of the day. One hopes that the misfortunes are past.
Brian

[Brian Wentzell]

Update: HMCS Victoria fired the first test torpedo this week from a Canadian Victoria Class sub. This is a major milestone (the first real torpedo fired in the 13 or so years we have owned this class of boat) and suggests that Victoria will become fully operational this year.

Meanwhile the British MP from Portsmouth has publicly stated that Canada was sold defective subs by his country and we should get a portion of the purchase price refunded. This is a telling statement but I doubt that the UK government will ever admit that the Ministry of Defence was pawning off defective goods! On the other hand, I doubt we will buy used British naval stuff for a very long time.

Brian

[astraltrader]

Update: HMCS Victoria fired the first test torpedo this week from a Canadian Victoria Class sub. This is a major milestone (the first real torpedo fired in the 13 or so years we have owned this class of boat) and suggests that Victoria will become fully operational this year.

Meanwhile the British MP from Portsmouth has publicly stated that Canada was sold defective subs by his country and we should get a portion of the purchase price refunded. This is a telling statement but I doubt that the UK government will ever admit that the Ministry of Defence was pawning off defective goods! On the other hand, I doubt we will buy used British naval stuff for a very long time.

Brian


Dont worry too much on that score Brian as we have very little left to sell and even less in the future!! :o

How about Victory?? I am sure we would sell her for a reasonable offer! :D

[Brian Wentzell]

Terry:

Thanks for the opportunity to consider HMS Victory.

We, Nova Scotians, will pass on that as we are rebuilding the replica of the sailing schooner Bluenose II in Lunenburg for something approaching CAD 15,000,000. She was completed in 1963 and is being completely rebuilt. She has a completely new hull, built out of South American Angelique wood rather than local wood. This stuff is so dense that marine borers can't penetrate it.

The actual hull design is based on the original Bluenose that was launched on March 26,1921 in Lunenburg and lost in 1946 in the Caribbean. The second Bluenose had a modified hull as it was intended to be a show boat for a Nova Scotian brewery. By 2009 it was obvious that hogging and general deterioration demanded either a rebuild or construction of Bluenose III. The provincial government of the day chose the rebuild option.

The hull for the new Bluenose II (I think it is really either Bluenose 1.7 or Bluenose II.7 depending on whether you see it as a development of the first or second vessel) is complete and fitting out is well underway for launch later this year. The rebuilt vessel will have about 30% of the Bluenose II fittings, principally the masts, rigging, deck houses and some furniture. New or old, the Bluenose will be sailing once again as the Ambassador of the Province of Nova Scotia! She should sail for another 51 years or more, which will bring to her centennial.

You can see pictures of the rebuild on the Province of Nova Scotia website at http://www.gov.ns.ca

So Victory and Old Ironsides will have a civilian challenger for years of active service.

Brian

Brian

[Brian Wentzell]

Positive News: HMCS Windsor was relaunched this morning, April 11, 2012, in Halifax after 5 years of refitting on the Sycrolift drydock in HMC Dockyard. She now starts alongside trials which will lead to seagoing trials later this year. The Navy hopes she will be fully ready for servive in the next twelve months. Half the fleet is now in the water

Brian

[Brian Wentzell]

Update: As part of the streamlining of the naval command, control and training organisations announced by the Minister of National Defence yesterday (May 11, 2012) the RCN will establish a Directorate Canadian Submarine Force in Esquimalt, BC. The location has logic because half the force of 4 Victoria Class are based there and the long term in service support provider is located in neighbouring Victoria. The name of the organisation seems grandiose given the size of the fleet and sounds rather bureaucratic. One hopes it produces 3 operational submarines by 2015!
Brian