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tonclass
16-02-2008, 07:49
I hope this doesn't offend anyone, but it really 'Grips My Goat' when Royal Navy ships are referred to as 'The HMS............' They are not 'THE' anything !!

That is an Americanism. If you know what HMS & USS mean then you'll understand !!

THE 'United States Ship Whatever' is fine but THE 'Her/His Majesty's Ship...' is just bad grammar.

It really p****s me of when this happens on documentaries made in the UK about our warships. You'd have thought they would have done their homework properly.

Does anyone else feel the same ?

Rgds

Rik

romft1945
16-02-2008, 08:13
As someone said in an earlier post,"Meanwhile back in the Med" yes it really is bad Grammer,but look at the state of education in the country,
ROM;)

tomsam
16-02-2008, 09:12
EEH Rik,pan calling the kettle.
P.....s me of should surely be "off ".
Yes I do agree with you ,I sometimes use instances when I have missed the HMS off completely and used " the Royal Oak " eg. So in that instance it's fine as long as one misses the HMS off in the beginning.
I have seen instances when not only calculators are allowed in maths exams but small electronic spell checkers are allowed in english exams..
" Never in our day" eh Rik. LOLOL. This post should get all the "Grumpy Old Men " or Women, started on long tirades. ;)
Regards
Tomsam

cissystar650
16-02-2008, 12:14
I can do Grumpy Old Woman when it comes to the state of Grammar being taught in schools! My son, admittedly slightly dyslexic, comes home with stories written 'phonetically'. Ok, they spend a year teaching 3 year olds to write phonetically, then spend the next 15 years telling them not to! Anyway, my son's work was not good, to say the least...and the teacher's comments?? "Good Work!!" What hope is there?

As for 'The HMS.....' I totally see your point, and am now wracking my brain to try and remember if I ever committed this henious crime!

John Brown
16-02-2008, 13:06
This is obviously something Rik feels passionately about and I agree that people with a reasonable degree of naval knowledge should realise using the word 'THE' is inappropriate before HMS. Documentary makers should certainly 'do their homework' before airing any programmes as should professional authors. There are people coming to the site with little or no knowledge of naval matters but who are hoping to learn from those of us who, perhaps, know a little more. To point out this error is therefore perfectly acceptable otherwise how else will people learn. I personally might have used a gentler approach to teaching but then we all have different methods.

Similarly with spelling errors, I think it necessary for educational purposes that those errors crucial to the accuracy of a post are pointed out. The name of a ship, an Admiral, a battle etc. However, I do not think we should try to become English teachers and pick up on spelling or grammatical errors that are not relevant to the accuracy of the post.

I agree with the comments made on the standard of education in this country but feel that is for discussion in another forum.

We have recently had discussions on this forum regarding members not contributing enough to it. Some people have defended themselves by saying they might be embarrassed by the content of their post due to their lack of knowledge. The more senior members among us should be doing everything we can to encourage less confident ones to post and ensure we don't just add to their fears.

Just my opinion!


Regards...John

BB60
16-02-2008, 14:09
Never really gave any thought to it. Sounds reasonable though.

I guess I could insert my rant from several days ago about Pearl Harbor being spelled correctly.:D But I won't, as this thread is about HMS X, not the HMS X.

tonclass
16-02-2008, 15:24
Oops !! Well spotted Tomsam. Will take a slapped wrist for dropping the 'F'.
Rik

Stan.J
16-02-2008, 16:10
I think The H.M.S.....is even worse than "Those ones" or even "these ones."

BB60
16-02-2008, 18:23
I think The H.M.S.....is even worse than "Those ones" or even "these ones."

Or describing something as being "very unique".:p There are no degrees to uniqueness, it's either unique or it's not.

The Sailor
16-02-2008, 23:06
All you say is correct chaps, but take it easy on this stuff. This isn't an English language thesis. It's a fun forum.
I think that people on here are doing their best. Everyone realises that there are certain criteria for belonging here and people are meeting them.
Some time back I urged members to use 'spell check' and that seems to be happening. Punctuation is good too and a ban on swear words isn't hurting the forum.
Naval technical terms the real navy guys have to be tolerant with. Many on here aren't navy including myself.
This is the most precisely spoken and polite forum I have ever seen.
There is little room here for complaint.

Finally, as I said in an earlier post, it is an unwritten rule on forums never to embarrass another member directly over spelling.
Spelling and technical terminology can be pointed out to others in the correct use by yourself. It is up to the observation of the others to take it on board.

astraltrader
17-02-2008, 16:19
Seconded for that refreshing post of common sense, Sir!
All of us on here no matter how knowledgeable have lots still to learn.
I was taught that one of the pre-requirements of being knowledgeable was to realise how little one knew...

Melv.
21-02-2008, 15:31
Being a non Navy type through service my gripe is with documentries and commentators who call the the Royal Air Force the "British/English Air Force".
I do make allowances for our American Cousins but, dammit! I heard it from a home grown commentator only last month.
I wanted to make him eat soap for making such a scurrulous error on home turf!
How's my spellign and grammer by the way? :D

DJBlackburn
21-02-2008, 17:34
How's my spellign and grammer by the way?


It's grammar, not "grammer". The error in the word "spellign" is a typo, not a spelling issue.

Tonclass' pet peeve is "the" before HMS; I couldn't agree more! MY trigger gets pulled when I see:

* Hanger (hangar)
* Smokestack (funnel)
* Battlewagon (battleship)
* Missle (missile)
* Cannon (when it's really a rifle)
* Chock (fairlead or bollard)
* Bismark
* Prince of Whales
* Denmark Straight

These are just a few of the more common ones, but you get the idea! Being a Yank, I respect proper English variants (colour, tyres, cheque, aeroplane, fibre) and never chide anyone for whom English is not their native language.

That said, I agree that it's not the big deal some make of it when these errors appear, but I respect and appreciate those who are careful with their spelling and grammar.

Stan.J
21-02-2008, 18:57
We all make the occasional Typing error, I don`t use the spell check myself but I do have a Dictionary/Thesaurus handy. If I make a grammatical error, my Wife an ex -Teacher , gives me a right rollicking.

herakles
21-02-2008, 20:16
It strikes me that we members are of a type. The type who feel it necessary to defend our language yet recognising that life does go on. With so many variants of English spoken today, the written word is about the only place where a fairly pure form is used by everyone.

Also, we defend the misery we were forced to suffer at school by jealously maintaining the poems we learned there are still the best and that grammar is important etc.. (Note my use of two fullstops here) How many of today's yooof know what a past pluperfect verb is I wonder?

Mistakes abound - mistakes that needn't be. Saying "The HMAS" is one. As is "PIN number" and others. Mistakes such as these reflect ignorance. That's why they needn't be. I'm not going to get excited about split infinitives but I still bang my head needlessly over the spelling of the "our" word as in Labour vs Labor. (Sorry Jeff)

Then there's that can of worms called pronunciation. Best left undeveloped I think.

romft1945
21-02-2008, 20:32
By the Heck Herks u was not an English teacher was you,Sorry mate But it is a time we live in and we will never alter it no matter what,
Rom:eek:

herakles
21-02-2008, 20:54
No mate, I wasn't an English teacher. But I happen to think we are ALL English teachers.

And I can't buy the "times we live in ... ..." argument. Our language has always been under fire and needed defending. Right back to when Bill the Bastard came over in 1066 with all his fancy words.

viv1949
21-02-2008, 22:45
Hi guys and gals

I think we need a new thread here with words and phrases which annoy the h*** out of us and I will start it as "Grumpy Old Men and Women" !

Viv

John Brown
22-02-2008, 00:32
DJ doesn't like the term 'Battlewagon' which I must admit, I do use occassionally. However, as my ex WW2 RN father uses it, I think 'what's good enough for him is good enough for me'

Regards...John

astraltrader
22-02-2008, 00:39
I think as British you should refer to it as Battlewaggon!!?:rolleyes:

The Sailor
22-02-2008, 05:57
I wish that this business about different pronunciations and spelling between you lot, septic tanks and us colonial louts down here were the biggest issues. Our Anglo Saxon race has problems and I think we should have stuck together more after the war we all won together.

John Brown
22-02-2008, 08:41
Terry

Sad to say...It just doesn't look right!!:(

johnny07
09-02-2011, 19:07
Or describing something as being "very unique".:p There are no degrees to uniqueness, it's either unique or it's not.

It's the same with safe haven. By definition a haven is safe.

BB60
09-02-2011, 19:26
It's the same with safe haven. By definition a haven is safe.

Irregardless <------There should a fine and imprisonment associated with the use of that non-word in a public place.

Dave Hutson
09-02-2011, 19:32
Hi there BB60 - when all is said and done we remain two nations separated by a common language - however spelt.

We say Theatre - you say Theater
We Centre - you say Center
We say Boot - you say Trunk
We say Lift - you say Elevator

Hell - we could go on forever ;)

Fact remains it is HMS and not The HMS [who started this anyhow, sorry, anyway]

Dave H

Tiornu
09-02-2011, 19:49
There was once a protracted exchange in Mariner's Mirror regarding "the." A band of fuddy-duddies was raging over the failure to use the article in front of a ship's name--Victory instead of the Victory. Someone wanted to blame young destroyer skippers who had picked up the habit of the dropped "the" from snooty yacht owners. An outrage!

sierra hotel
09-02-2011, 23:45
Hi there BB60 - when all is said and done we remain two nations separated by a common language - however spelt.

We say Theatre - you say Theater
We Centre - you say Center
We say Boot - you say Trunk
We say Lift - you say Elevator

Hell - we could go on forever ;)

Fact remains it is HMS and not The HMS [who started this anyhow, sorry, anyway]

Dave H
DITTO...havent we got more important things to worry about, people?????jeeeeeesh. I say, its 'HMCS', not THE HMCS ship.... or, if referring to a US ship will simply say, thats the HORNET. Thats the PRINCE OF WALES.
oh well......

keblin
09-02-2011, 23:56
Good stuff. It's another tot time discussion that could lead to......%$(*&^_*&&"$!

......well put it down to experience. Here's another towel for your nose, mate!

Jan Steer
10-02-2011, 09:51
As a footnote may I be allowed to quote Oscar Wilde?

"Education is a wonderful thing but it is worth remembering from time to time that there is nothing worth knowing that can be taught."

best wishes
Jan

jainso31
10-02-2011, 11:07
I have read this thread from beginning to end and was thoroughly entertained by the badinage,blunders and downright cussedness about our language.Thanks men you have set me up for the day!


jainso31

Polycell
10-02-2011, 11:17
As a footnote may I be allowed to quote Oscar Wilde?

"Education is a wonderful thing but it is worth remembering from time to time that there is nothing worth knowing that can be taught."

best wishes
Jan

"Education is a wonderful thing, provided you always remember that nothing worth knowing can ever be taught.
Whats that mean Jan?
I have been musing over this for ages so is he saying that your school days are useless?

Doesn't alter the fact that the statement This is 'The Her Majesty's Ship Virago ' is not right grammatically does it!!

TCC
10-02-2011, 11:32
DITTO...havent we got more important things to worry about, people?????jeeeeeesh. I say, its 'HMCS', not THE HMCS ship.... or, if referring to a US ship will simply say, thats the HORNET. Thats the PRINCE OF WALES.
oh well......

Surely it's 'SHE's the PRINCE OF WALES'? ;)

patroclus
10-02-2011, 11:52
Whilst I think it is generally accepted that the definite article "the" is not used when HMS is used before a ship's name, the big argument has always been whether "the" should or should not be used ahead of the ship's name when "HMS" is omitted - i.e. "NELSON" or "the NELSON". Doing the "wrong" thing here can get you into trouble very quickly:D

MelQuick
10-02-2011, 12:02
Hi Everyone

I agree. You only have to remember what 'HMS' stands for.

We don't say, "Oh, here's the Her Majesty." or "Good morning, the Her Majesty."

It's OK for 'USS', of course, because that stands for the United States Ship.

You find it in dozens of TV programmes. I was annoyed when Hood was referred to as the HMS Hood, but they then went on to call her a battleship, which she most certainly wasn't.

Mel

John Brown
10-02-2011, 13:09
You find it in dozens of TV programmes. I was annoyed when Hood was referred to as the HMS Hood, but they then went on to call her a battleship, which she most certainly wasn't.

Mel

Even more annoying when they show film of HMS Barham 'blowing up' but claim it is of Hood in her death throws.


Regards...John

Jan Steer
10-02-2011, 14:17
Polycell thanks for your reply and your interest but at the risk of sounding a little pompous I think it might take far too long to explain. Its meant to be taken in humour though and if you are genuinely curious have a look at Wilde's "Advice to the young"; it's full of absolute gems and all will become clear.

I agree with what others have posted: It is not the purpose of the forum to decry others for their lack of familiarity with English spelling and grammar, although it must be the case that knowledge in these two areas has declined since my day. But does it really matter? Language is after all a means of communication and if you can make the other person understand what you mean then it has done it's job. Each generation adapts and modifies the language for it's own use. How ever much we deplore this we must accept it as fact.

best wishes
Jan

Polycell
10-02-2011, 19:47
OK Jan received. But when I was pilloried for using the ancient language of 'Jack speak' at least others could have a little respect for the English language.

tonclass
10-02-2011, 20:59
But does it really matter? Language is after all a means of communication and if you can make the other person understand what you mean then it has done it's job.

As a former RN sailor it certainly DOES matter to me !!! To add 'the' in front of HMS shows you have no knowledge of what HMS means !! Acceptable from those across the pond I accept, but to UK documentary programs it's a bloody disgrace. It shows a total lack of understanding/research/interest.

On another note similar to this, I've seen loads of photo's posted on the net (particularly FLICKR) of HMS QUEEN MARY, rather than RMS QUEEN MARY. Some folk just don't know the difference, or haven't the slightest clue as to what these mean............... (You've started me off on some more pet hate campaign again :mad:;))

Would our American cousins be happy with all of us calling the USS NIMITZ, CSS NIMITZ for example ???

Nigel999
10-02-2011, 21:10
I wish that this business about different pronunciations and spelling between you lot, septic tanks and us colonial louts down here were the biggest issues. Our Anglo Saxon race has problems and I think we should have stuck together more after the war we all won together.

I'd agree with that.

Its curious though as to how just small things can truly rattle cages and grind on the mind. I cringe when I hear "The HMS" and as said, its even worse when it comes from those who should really know better.

One that's oft repeated when observing a military painting of yore. A description akin to " The 49th going into battle flags flying"

Colours!! "The 49th going into battle flying their Colours". Do we have the "The Trooping of the flags" ? No mate, its "The Trooping of the Colours"

I shall shut up now

Cheers, Nigel

Jan Steer
11-02-2011, 09:21
Whoa! Steady there Ton Class, watch the old blood pressure oppo! After all none of us are growing younger.
But seriously though I do accept what you say and it is a great pity that the language has changed. I wish you well in your endeavours to re-educate the masses. However, I feel that you may have a struggle on your hands. Sometimes it takes a great strength to accept that some things cannot be changed because they lie beyond our control.

best wishes
Jan

alanbenn
11-02-2011, 10:36
Rik, I, like yourself have the same 'pet hate' when Hms Ark Royal visited Tyneside just before Christmas the local TV news reports referred to her as The Hms Ark Royal, I sent an email to one of the senior presenters who replied to me and did apologise as she agreed it is something that should be researched beforehand.
The reports later in the day were all amended to the correct way, I've noticed that reports of Navy ships since then have all been reported using the correct way.

Regards
Alan

CE REYC
11-02-2011, 10:40
Re Ton Class's post. You should now refer to THE Queen Mary as she can now no longer be regarded as a Royal Mail Steamer carrying mails!

tonclass
11-02-2011, 14:15
Rik, I, like yourself have the same 'pet hate' when Hms Ark Royal visited Tyneside just before Christmas the local TV news reports referred to her as The Hms Ark Royal, I sent an email to one of the senior presenters who replied to me and did apologise as she agreed it is something that should be researched beforehand.
The reports later in the day were all amended to the correct way, I've noticed that reports of Navy ships since then have all been reported using the correct way.

Regards
Alan

Well done Alan. About time they admitted to not doing any research. BZ :)

oldsalt
11-02-2011, 18:24
One of my pet hates, in books about the RN, using Battlewagons instead of Battleships. I often see in the local press references to Officers when they mean Senior Ratings.

John Odom
11-02-2011, 20:54
The grammar and proper use of terminology in the press is atrocious. I wonder what they teach in journalism school these days?

TACKLINE
11-02-2011, 21:37
A couple of things that grate. 'No more' instead of 'any more',and the usage of the words 'There' and Their'in the wrong context.

Polycell
12-02-2011, 08:49
One of my pet hates, in books about the RN, using Battlewagons instead of Battleships. I often see in the local press references to Officers when they mean Senior Ratings.
Arrr thats cos, Old Salt, that them there Chief and Petty Officers are the ones that get things done in the RN!

Mitch Hinde
13-02-2011, 17:56
Hi All

Sunday Telegraph magazine SEVEN television listings for Monday, guilty as charged.

Mitch Hinde:eek:

astraltrader
14-02-2011, 05:30
The grammar and proper use of terminology in the press is atrocious. I wonder what they teach in journalism school these days?


Agree entirely John. That is why we ask members not to use texting style when typing their posts.

John O'Callaghan
14-02-2011, 07:17
HI All! But surely Chiefs and Petty Officers are 'Officers' in the sense Non Commisioned Officers as opposed to Commisioned Officers. I know it's not common practice to use the term as in the Army or Airforce.But...... Additionally the use 'the' before a ships name but after HMS (eg HMS the Venus) is prabably grammatically correct but not common practice.To say nothing of offending traditionalists in both cases.
Cheers John O'C.

Wellbran
15-02-2011, 10:21
I have also seen many references on this forum to "driving" a ship....that really makes me laugh.

Allan SINCLAIR
01-03-2011, 15:13
I have just read this thread (it rhymes!) and, of course, my old ship Polycell is absolutely correct. I was prompted to read the thread after some plonker of a BBC reporter (where do they find them?) referred to "the HMS Cumberland" on Monday morning whilst reporting on the evacuation of Benghazi. Is this being pedantic - I don't think so. These people - the products of our universities - are paid a lot of public money, so get it right!

Allan SINCLAIR
01-03-2011, 15:18
Sorry, forgot. On the subject of using the word 'driver' to describe a ship's captain, or the pilot of an aircraft I think this usage is a bit tongue in cheek. When I was a police advanced car 'driver' I often used to take as passengers, officers from the Joint Services Staff College. Those commanding one of HM Ships would always describe themselves as e.g. a frigate driver or a destroyer driver.

kentish maid
01-03-2011, 18:43
Going back to 18-02-2008 by Stan J. How about them ones! KM

Simba
01-03-2011, 19:02
Sad to say, 'the HMS . . . ' is now being uttered by BBC newscasters, who really should know better. At least the story is worth hearing about: Her Majesty's Ship Cumberland is doing a splendid job in the Med at the mo.

whalerman
02-03-2011, 12:06
Heard on the Real Radio (Scotland) news last week that HMS Cumbernauld was going to Lybia.(For those south of the border Cumbernauld is a small town just outside Glasgow). :)

Pash
02-03-2011, 15:03
I hope this doesn't offend anyone, but it really 'Grips My Goat' when Royal Navy ships are referred to as 'The HMS............' They are not 'THE' anything !!

That is an Americanism. If you know what HMS & USS mean then you'll understand !!

THE 'United States Ship Whatever' is fine but THE 'Her/His Majesty's Ship...' is just bad grammar.

It really p****s me of when this happens on documentaries made in the UK about our warships. You'd have thought they would have done their homework properly.

Does anyone else feel the same ?

Rgds

Rik


Oh yes I do. News readers are often at it especially about HMS York and the other UK ship helping in Libya.

Its been annoying me for days but yesterday I noticed some seem to have got the message. I wondered if someone and told them !!


Another thing that used to annoy me was seaman officers asking us to 'switch on' the 2nd boiler !!!!

John O'Callaghan
02-03-2011, 21:59
Hi Pash! With some of the fishhead officers I met I'd be amazed they even knew we had boilers never mind how many or if they could be 'switched on'
Cheers John O'C.

Alwyn
03-03-2011, 03:34
Or describing something as being "very unique".:p There are no degrees to uniqueness, it's either unique or it's not.

Or indeed, 'very excellent,' where excellent itself is the superlative.

oldsalt
03-03-2011, 16:04
Another irritation appearing in the national press , is using Battleship when they mean warship.