New Dutch 'Holland' Class OPV

[Old Salt]

A friend in UK sent me these pics of the new Dutch Navy Offshore Patrol Vessel 'Holland' leaving Ipswich on Monday after a visit. The first of a class of four. Fine looking ship, with a sophisticated radar system.

Unfortunately the Dutch government has recently announced budget cuts, and two of the ships are to be sold brand new .

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Future_Dutch_Navy_OPV%27s

Brian

[astraltrader]

A nice looking ship Brian. The RN could IMO use a class of those!

[harry.gibbon]

....... Fine looking ship, with a sophisticated radar system.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Future_Dutch_Navy_OPV%27s

Brian

Agreed, handy piece of seagoing kit!

Re the link and radar stats claimed therein; a typo or - salt, pinch of - me thinks;) 'can detect a human in water at 160kms' Hmmmm!!!

Like the pics though.

Little h

[brian james]

Brian ..very nice looking bits of gear..Don't tell me they are acquiring the 'Brit Malaise' and cutting back on everything!!!

[John Odom]

That "Can detect a human in the water at 160 km" sounds like hyperbole. They also sounds like nice ships. Would be better for piracy patrol than a CVN.

[astraltrader]

Brian ..very nice looking bits of gear..Don't tell me they are acquiring the 'Brit Malaise' and cutting back on everything!!!

Brian the Dutch have been cutting back on their fleet numbers for some years now as have the majority of European navies, so this "malaise" is not just confined to the RN.
Unfortunately as a former front ranking navy the cuts inflicted on the RN over the past 20 years in particular has been both excessive and especially noticeable....

[Old Salt]

That "Can detect a human in the water at 160 km" sounds like hyperbole. They also sounds like nice ships. Would be better for piracy patrol than a CVN.

John

A good assessment ! However, at 22 knots they would have to rely on their RHIBs to catch a pirate fizzboat. Unless they use their main armament !

Do they have pirates around Holland ?

Brian

[medway508]

They are nearly as big as the old Leander Class frigate.

[Lachlan of Queensland]

i reckon the RN should buy them and post them to the Gibralta Squadron to give the RN a bigger bite in the Med sea.

[Old Salt]

They are nearly as big as the old Leander Class frigate.

You are right there, medway.

Leander 113m 2450 tons 200+ crew
Dutch OPV 108m 3750 tons 50crew

The extra tonnage does not compute for me. Anyone comment ??

Brian

[Lachlan of Queensland]

the RNZN Protector class OPV are only 1900 tonnes and 85 metres long and a manximum complement of 49 crew and is the Premier OPV class on earth (this is a big compilment coz im Aussie LOL). idk where the extra 1100 tonnes for the Holland Class came from? unless the Hull is very thick and heavily re-enforced.... but 1100 tonnes of re-enforcing is highly unlikely :confused:

[John Odom]

. but 1100 tonnes of re-enforcing......

Perhaps a typographical error somewhere is more likely.

[Lachlan of Queensland]

You are right there, medway.

Leander 113m 2450 tons 200+ crew
Dutch OPV 108m 3750 tons 50crew

The extra tonnage does not compute for me. Anyone comment ??

Brian

the Oliver Hazard Perry class frigate has a displacement of 4200 tonnes. so the Holland class in terms of displacement is either a corvette or a frigate though it lacks in offensive capability to be designated as so. though the radar system is a very advanced one for only patrol tasks... so the dutch may have planned to give the Holland Class heavier armament at a later date. whoever buys the two ships will be getting good value for money

and john Odom i apologise for my errors.

[PHOENIX09]

When will these ships be receiving their cone hat radar kits? they are a nice looking unit, but definately have that half finished look.

[harry.gibbon]

That "Can detect a human in the water at 160 km" sounds like hyperbole.

John,

hyperbole.... nay nay & thrice times nay:);
Please see extract from the RADAR section of the link posted in the opening post:-
...................
The radar fitted on the OPV's is exceptionally powerful keeping in mind the ships tasks are limited to low intensity conflicts. It can detect stealthy ships at a range of 260 km and, in addition to that, the radar of the Holland class is capable of detecting objects the size of humans in the water at a range of 260 km.
...................

Perhaps a simple typo me thinks, or at worst the repitition of a phrase by the originator who lost his way.

Little h

[SheppeyMiss]

Gentlemen,

Suffering, as I do, from insatiable curiosity I followed this link Naval technology.com - Holland Class specifications (http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/hollandclasspatrol/specs.html) from the originator's article mentioned, as an information source, in posts #1 (http://www.worldnavalships.com/forums/showpost.php?p=167356&postcount=1) & #3 (http://www.worldnavalships.com/forums/showpost.php?p=167448&postcount=3) to an article in Naval-technology.com. Quoted at the end of the article is this link Return to Holland Class Patrol Vessels Project (http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/hollandclasspatrol/).

Following that takes us to an article entitled Holland Class Patrol Vessels, Netherlands. I have taken the following quote from there (the highlighting is mine):


Holland Class OPV sensors

The OPV is the first vessel in the Royal Netherlands Navy to be fitted with Thales Integrated Sensor & Communication Systems (ISCS). The system integrates communication and optical sensors, RF systems and radars.

The sensor suite includes a Sea Master 400 air warning radar, a Watcher 100 active phased-array surface detection and tracking radar, a mine detection sonar, RADIAC sensors and an infrared Gatekeeper / electro-optical warning system. The OPV can make observations within a range of 140nm.


This googled article from Thales gives more details but isn't specific about range. Nevertheless for aficionados (nodding to Little h ;)), the article makes interesting reading: http://www.thales-electrondevices.com/Case_Studies/naval_integrated_mast/

This little snippet comes from there:

The sensors for the patrol vessel have been selected to meet the specific challenges of littoral missions, ranging from tricky atmospheric conditions to surface targets such as mines, swimmers and periscopes that are difficult to detect between waves - not to mention false alarms triggered by windmills ashore or seabirds with missile-like radar cross-sections!

Maybe these results of this search can be of use to you.

Missy

[Old Salt]

When will these ships be receiving their cone hat radar kits? they are a nice looking unit, but definately have that half finished look.

I believe that the 'stealth' shapes of modern naval vessels explains the half finished look. Smooth as a baby's bottom is best they say ?

Brian

[glojo]

Gentlemen,

Suffering, as I do, from insatiable curiosity EXCELLENT research.. A tick in your reputation box is much deserved ;)

[harry.gibbon]

Gentlemen,

Suffering, as I do, from insatiable curiosity I followed this link Naval technology.com - Holland Class specifications (http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/hollandclasspatrol/specs.html) from the originator's article mentioned, as an information source, in posts #1 (http://www.worldnavalships.com/forums/showpost.php?p=167356&postcount=1) & #3 (http://www.worldnavalships.com/forums/showpost.php?p=167448&postcount=3) to an article in Naval-technology.com. Quoted at the end of the article is this link Return to Holland Class Patrol Vessels Project (http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/hollandclasspatrol/).

Following that takes us to an article entitled Holland Class Patrol Vessels, Netherlands. I have taken the following quote from there (the highlighting is mine):



This googled article from Thales gives more details but isn't specific about range. Nevertheless for aficionados (nodding to Little h ;)), the article makes interesting reading: http://www.thales-electrondevices.com/Case_Studies/naval_integrated_mast/

This little snippet comes from there:

Maybe these results of this search can be of use to you.

Missy

Hi Missy,

Yup, thought we'd seen that stuff before....eh what;);):):-

http://www.worldnavalships.com/forums/showpost.php?p=161296&postcount=1319

Little h

[SheppeyMiss]

Hi Harry,

Post #19 (http://www.worldnavalships.com/forums/showpost.php?p=168062&postcount=19): I just knew I couldn't teach my 'grandpa' to suck eggs ;) :D (I did kind of remember the IMast from that thread whilst following up the links - so the credit is yours really). Maybe the other guys enjoyed the journey tho'... :)

Missy

[harry.gibbon]

Hi Harry,

Post #19 (http://www.worldnavalships.com/forums/showpost.php?p=168062&postcount=19): I just knew I couldn't teach my 'grandpa' to suck eggs ;) :D (I did kind of remember the IMast from that thread whilst following up the links - so the credit is yours really). Maybe the other guys enjoyed the journey tho'... :)

Missy

Missy,

This 'G/Grandpa' says the credit is still yours just as rightfully awarded by glojo! You did the research and posted the links, I just freeloaded and made the earlier connection.

'BZ' to you.

Little h

[SheppeyMiss]

Thanks Glojo and Little h for the BZ. Much appreciated from such experts...

I was wondering, along with PHOENIX09, when the current OPV is going to get it's IMast kit. I can't find anything via Mr Google.

Regards
Missy

[Hereman]

Regarding the surprising displacement of 3,750 tons (full load) for these ships, sources suggest the use of mild steel rather than high tensile steel in their construction accounts for much of this, that and the requirement to operate a helicopter of NH90 size, with full hangar facilities.

It is suggested that the use of mild steel lowers production costs and while heavier than tensile steel, provides a greater degree of ballistic protection from small calibre weapons. http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/hollandclasspatrol/

As has been mentioned, due to cuts, only two of the four ship class are likely to be retained by the Dutch Navy, the original order being based on a numerically 'like for like' basis as replacements for four 'Karel Doorman Class' frigates. Clearly not a 'like for like' replacement in terms of capability.

With the premature loss of the UK's Type 22's in the SDSR, the Royal Navy is faced with an even worse situation in my view. The Type 22's were arguably the RN's most capable frigates in many respects and their disposal without replacement leaves the remaining destroyer/frigate force badly stretched. In my view, the acquisition of the two 'surplus' Dutch vessels by the RN could represent a valuable, cost effective solution in some respects. The Holland Class would be well suited to the Anti-piracy role, indeed their design incorporates this ability. As with existing Bahrain based units, one or both ships could be based in the region for an extended period, crews being rotated as with the MCM flotilla. This would dispense with the need for extended positioning voyages and frequent transits of the Suez Canal. Further economies would be derived from the 'lean manning' crew arrangements of the OPVs, only requiring 1/5th the crew numbers of a Type 22, but with the capacity for an additional 40 personnel to fill the roles required to carry out board/search, helicopter operations etc.

The 'Holland's speed has been criticised to some extent, but as recent anti-piracy operations have been successfully conducted by RFA's including 'Fort Victoria' with a similar top speed, this may not be as critical as might be thought. Indeed the embarked helicopter and RHIBs, as with the RFA's would play a vital role. Indeed if both vessels were deployed on this task, the overall effect could be markedly improved, but of course this is all wishful thinking.
Regarding the somewhat 'limited' speed of these ships, it should be borne in mind that our existing 'River Class' OPVs are no faster and with the exception of 'Clyde' have no helicopter facilities, even the latter lacking the means to embark/maintain one.
Aside from the fact that these two ships would free up larger more valuable units, they would provide valuable operational experience for the future.

Currently the proposal for Type 26/Future Surface Combatant seem to change on a monthly basis, while the question of the common replacement hull for the MCM/OPV/Survey vessels has faded from view altogether! The 'Holland Class' seem to offer something approaching the idea behind that vessel type and has some similarities with BMT's 'Venator' concept, http://www.bmtdsl.co.uk/?/196/853/1708

While not perhaps as capable as BAE's 'Project Khareef' corvette in terms of armament, they would certainly appear to be worthy of comparison and being 'in build' would be available far sooner were the UK to consider introducing this type of vessel. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khareef_class

Of course the question of finance will be the main issue while the UK prefers to donate £billions in foreign aid at the expense of our national defence.

No doubt some might argue that buying new 'Dutch' built ships hurts British shipbuilding, yet it appears few questioned Serco-Denholm's choice of Damen for the replacement of much of the former RNAS fleet.

Perhaps this does just amount to 'wishful thinking' on my part, but it strikes me as making more sense than expecting UK armed forces to 'do more with less' as HMG seems to be adopting as their 'motto' Yes a 'British' purpose built option would be desirable, yet we all know it would be years away and at far higher cost!!

[Old Salt]

Thanks Hereman, a well thought out proposal.

With helos and 40 knot RHIBs there is no need for the ship to be super fast.

As for armament, I am sure more could be added if required ?

Brian